# Things illegal for US Citizens to to abroad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548 "2011-09-25T13:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/21 "2011-09-25T17:05:28Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Consensual, noncommercial sex with a 16 year old is legal just about everywhere, even in accordance with the PROTECT ACT. Also, one can have sex with a 15 year old if there is less than a 4 year age difference. You might want to be careful with the advice, because state laws vary widely. Twelve states set 18 as the age of consent and the “close in age” exception is far from uniform. For example, Georgia, Kansas and Illinois have no close in age exceptions, but the charges may be lesser if the age gap is not great. ETA: [Age of consent in North America - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_North_America#United_States) ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/22 "2011-09-25T18:28:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > … the “close in age” exception is far from uniform. It doesn’t have to be universal, since I was talking specifically about the PROTECT ACT. That law has a 4 year gap for minors between 12 and 16. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/23 "2011-09-25T18:34:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You might want to be careful with the advice, because state laws vary widely. From your own cite: “Each US state has its own age of consent. Currently state laws set the age of consent at 16, 17 or 18. The most common age is 16.” Since the “most common age is 16” even in the United States, it is flat out wrong for another poster to claim sex with a 17 year old overseas is illegal for a US Citizen. That was the point of the post. I think that was pretty clear. Not sure how to be “more careful”. This thread is about conduct that is illegal for US Citizens who are in other countries, not other states. Come back with cites for age of consent in other countries and you will see that “sex with a 16 year old is legal just about everywhere” is not far off. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/24 "2011-09-25T18:37:31Z")
Is the illegal act having sex with an underage person in another country, or is it traveling to another country for the purposes of having sex with an underage person? I had always understood it to be the latter, as being how the action can be made illegal, given the lack of jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/25 "2011-09-25T20:53:47Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > The ‘law’ technically exists as an amendment by the Bush administration in 2004 to the Cuba embargo. As noted in this [piece](http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/06/no_cuban_cigars_abroad_too_1.php), how it became a law and the constitutionality of that law are questionable. > > I’m in a part of Mexico very popular with tourists from the US and Canada, they sell Cuban cigars here at almost every little corner store, and one of the first questions many tourists ask when they get off the plane is where they can find them. I haven’t heard of any cases of this being prosecuted but it would be interesting to see if it stood up in court once challenged. FWIW, because purchasing the cigar is financially supporting the Castro regime. At least that’s the rational that was given to me when I was in French Guiana. My first run in with the civil & criminal liability of American citizens outside the US occurred in the Arctic. Our location was within international waters. We were informed that if we killed a cetacean, pinniped, or a ursine (other than self-defense) this would result in prosecution in the US for violation of F&W laws. At this same camp, 15 years or so earlier, I was told about an argument over booze that led to one American murdering another American. Since the murder had occurred in international waters and the camp was technically not a sovereign area of the US , the question of jurisdiction came up. UN? Federal? State? Let him get away with it? From what I was told, after months of debating the issue, a federal judge in Chicago decided to take on the case and the suspect was convicted. This happen allegedly in the 70’s, but I’ve never found a case listed like this using internet search engines. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/26 "2011-09-25T21:03:56Z")
> [@nolonger\_lurking](#): > > Having sex with someone under 18 is I think the big one. Interestingly enough, Americans can leaving a state with an age of consent of 16, travel to a foreign country where prostitution is legal, pay a 17 year old for sex, and get busted upon return under the PROTECT act of 2003. I don’t know if this has ever actually happened. I don’t know of any country with legal prostitution that allows anyone under the age of 18 to be a prostitute, but assuming there is one, then yes, an American could be prosecuted for this. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/27 "2011-09-25T21:24:53Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > That was the point of the post. I think that was pretty clear. You are right – I overlooked the context. No offense intended. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/28 "2011-09-25T21:38:03Z")
> [@user\_hostile](#): > > FWIW, because purchasing the cigar is financially supporting the Castro regime. At least that’s the rational that was given to me when I was in French Guiana. > > My first run in with the civil & criminal liability of American citizens outside the US occurred in the Arctic. Our location was within international waters. We were informed that if we killed a cetacean, pinniped, or a ursine (other than self-defense) this would result in prosecution in the US for violation of F&W laws. > > At this same camp, 15 years or so earlier, I was told about an argument over booze that led to one American murdering another American. Since the murder had occurred in international waters and the camp was technically not a sovereign area of the US , the question of jurisdiction came up. UN? Federal? State? Let him get away with it? From what I was told, after months of debating the issue, a federal judge in Chicago decided to take on the case and the suspect was convicted. This happen allegedly in the 70’s, but I’ve never found a case listed like this using internet search engines. I had no doubt about the reason that the US would want to outlaw buying Cuban products anywhere in the world, but just if they have the constitutional authority to do so. I took a quick look to see if I could find the case you mentioned about murder in international waters. I guess it should come as no surprise by now, \*\*Cecil \*\*has [covered this already](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2250/in-international-waters-are-you-beyond-the-reach-of-the-law) and the answer seems to apply to both the Cuban cigar and murder on the high seas scenarios. > [@](#): > > (4) The protective principle. According to Amnesty International: National law in most states permits courts to exercise jurisdiction over conduct by persons abroad which harms the national–particularly the security–interests of the forum state in violation of its own national criminal law (protective or security principle or _compétence réelle ou compétence du protection_). This principle has been used to prosecute national security offences; currency offences; counterfeiting currency, stamps, seals and emblems; desecration of flags; economic crimes; forgery, fraud or perjury in connection with official documents, such as passports and visas; immigration offences and political offences. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/29 "2011-09-25T22:04:00Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I had no doubt about the reason that the US would want to outlaw buying Cuban products anywhere in the world, but just if they have the constitutional authority to do so. Which causes me to wonder, because by the same token, U.S. law doesn’t prohibit its citizens from simply going to Cuba itself. It just says you can’t go there “as a consumer.” So you can go there as part of some arranged cultural exchange, or as a journalist, etc.–I guess so long as your paperwork reflects that you aren’t there as a tourist, essentially. So buying Cuban cigars in Mexico is no different than buying them inside the U.S., as far as the law should be concerned. The law really is targeted at whoever would import them, obviously, and most people who buy them in Mexico or Canada do so to take them back to the U.S., and are in a way importing them. The constitutionality then becomes a question when you wish to buy a Cuban cigar (or any Cuban product) and consume it wherever you happen to be outside of the U.S.–be that Canada, Mexico–or sitting at Capelia next to La Rampa in Havana. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/30 "2011-09-25T22:19:30Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Which causes me to wonder, because by the same token, U.S. law doesn’t prohibit its citizens from simply going to Cuba itself. It just says you can’t go there “as a consumer.” So you can go there as part of some arranged cultural exchange, or as a journalist, etc.–I guess so long as your paperwork reflects that you aren’t there as a tourist, essentially. > > So buying Cuban cigars in Mexico is no different than buying them inside the U.S., as far as the law should be concerned. The law really is targeted at whoever would import them, obviously, and most people who buy them in Mexico or Canada do so to take them back to the U.S., and are in a way importing them. The constitutionality then becomes a question when you wish to buy a Cuban cigar (or any Cuban product) and consume it wherever you happen to be outside of the U.S.–be that Canada, Mexico–or sitting at Capelia next to La Rampa in Havana. And, apart from international waters anyway, the country of primary jurisdiction would not take kindly to the US forcing tourists in their country to obey US embargoes, thus putting the embargo on them as well. They certainly won’t allow US law enforcement to enforce US law in their countries. So unless the US made a treaty with Mexico and Canada to arrest and extradite US citizens found to be in violation of a US law, the only real enforcement that could be applied would be upon trying to return to the US with the ill-gotten cigars. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/31 "2011-09-25T22:27:15Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Are you sure it’s common practice? I only have knowledge of the Irish case, where Irish citizens living abroad are not liable for tax in Ireland on income earned overseas. I don’t know how many countries follow the Irish model and how many the US model, but I always thought the US model was the unusual one. > [@Fish\_Cheer](#): > > Not true for Germany, for example. A German citizen who resides abroad and earns all her money abroad does not owe any taxes to the German government. Similarly with Australia. I’m an Australian citizen, who spent most of the last 12 years working in the U.S. Because I was not resident in Australia, I did not have to report my U.S. income to Australia or pay tax on it in Australia. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/32 "2011-09-25T22:34:19Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Which causes me to wonder, because by the same token, U.S. law doesn’t prohibit its citizens from simply going to Cuba itself. It just says you can’t go there “as a consumer.” So you can go there as part of some arranged cultural exchange, or as a journalist, etc.–I guess so long as your paperwork reflects that you aren’t there as a tourist, essentially. > > So buying Cuban cigars in Mexico is no different than buying them inside the U.S., as far as the law should be concerned. The law really is targeted at whoever would import them, obviously, and most people who buy them in Mexico or Canada do so to take them back to the U.S., and are in a way importing them. The constitutionality then becomes a question when you wish to buy a Cuban cigar (or any Cuban product) and consume it wherever you happen to be outside of the U.S.–be that Canada, Mexico–or sitting at Capelia next to La Rampa in Havana. But, where in the US (what jurisdiction) would you be prosecuted? If I went over the border and bought and smoked Cuban cigars in, say, New Brunswick, and then returned to the US, and I confessed to the US border officials that I had bought Cuban cigars on my trip but had smoked them all, and they decided that they wanted to arrest and prosecute me, where would I be tried? The jurisdiction that I attempted to re-enter the US in (e.g. some county in Maine)? My jurisdiction of residence? Washington, DC? The prosecutor’s little sister’s BFF’s spouse’s father’s high school chum’s favorite vacation spot? Wherever they want? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/33 "2011-09-25T22:38:35Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > But, where in the US (what jurisdiction) would you be prosecuted? … Wherever they want? It’s a federal offense, so my guess is that you could be prosecuted anywhere in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Malarame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8dc957/32.png) [@Malarame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malarame)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/34 "2011-09-26T00:48:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I believe that bribing local officials is illegal for American companies and individuals, even in countries where such practice is not only tolerated but expected. American ships in foreign ports get around that by hiring local port agents. The ship pays the port agent, who takes care of all the bribes and everything else that may be necessary in order to get whatever supplies and services the ship needs. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/35 "2011-09-26T01:08:53Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I had no doubt about the reason that the US would want to outlaw buying Cuban products anywhere in the world, but just if they have the constitutional authority to do so. > > I took a quick look to see if I could find the case you mentioned about murder in international waters. I guess it should come as no surprise by now, \*\*Cecil \*\*has [covered this already](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2250/in-international-waters-are-you-beyond-the-reach-of-the-law) and the answer seems to apply to both the Cuban cigar and murder on the high seas scenarios. Thanks. Afterthought–I wondered if the murder could be framed as piracy on the high seas? If so, was it over a bottle of _Captain Morgan_? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/36 "2011-09-26T01:31:19Z")
Most countries tax on the basis of residence - residents, regardless of nationality, are taxed on their worldwide income and non-resident, regardless of nationality, are taxed on any income they derive from the country in question. The model tax treaties prepared by agencies like the OECD are drafted on th basis of two countries whose basis of taxation is primarily residence. I won’t say the US is unique in taxing non-resident citizens on their worldwide income, but it’s definitely in a minority. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/37 "2011-09-26T01:47:49Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > …I guess it should come as no surprise by now, \*\*Cecil \*\*has [covered this already](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2250/in-international-waters-are-you-beyond-the-reach-of-the-law)… Thanks for the link, but that was actually **Gfactor**. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/38 "2011-09-26T01:57:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Thanks for the link, but that was actually **Gfactor**. Right you are. Sorry about that, **Gfactor**. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/39 "2011-09-26T16:39:03Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Is the illegal act having sex with an underage person in another country, or is it traveling to another country for the purposes of having sex with an underage person? I had always understood it to be the latter, as being how the action can be made illegal, given the lack of jurisdiction. This is the way I understood it as well. This way the crime (the travel for the purpose) is committed when you are standing in line at JFK Airport, within US jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/40 "2011-09-26T17:35:20Z")
With Canadian law, extraterritoriality applies, such that if a Canadian has sex with a child abroad, that Canadian can be prosecuted (see. Criminal Code of Canada s. 7(4.1). The same goes for prosecuting terrorists where the terrorism was committed against a Canadian outside of Canada, or where the terrorism was committed by a Canadian outside of Canada (again, refer to s. 7 – just call up the statute and search for “outside Canada” – all sorts of cool and groovy stuff ranging from child sex tourism to space stations). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548.md?page=3)