# Things illegal for US Citizens to to abroad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 25, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548 "2011-09-25T13:51:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/81 "2017-02-12T08:00:26Z")
> [@Zach29](#): > > Here’s one to add: > > No guns or rocket launchers were found, but the arrest was based merely on the fact undercover agents alleged that he had said he would sell them weapons. That’s right, he was arrested because of words. There’s nothing inherently wrong with that. Attempted murder is a crime and merely discussing how to perform murder can be grounds for a conviction. (Eg attempting to hire a hitman). Viktor Bout was charged with “conspiring to sell weapons to a U.S.-designated foreign terrorist group” and then later with money laundering and wire fraud. > **[Viktor Bout](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout#Prosecution_and_conviction_in_the_United_States)** > > Viktor Anatolyevich Bout\[a\] (/buːt/; Russian: Ви́ктор Анато́льевич Бут; born 13 January 1967) is a Russian arms dealer and politician. A weapons manufacturer and former Soviet military translator, he used his multiple companies to smuggle arms from Eastern Europe to Africa and the Middle East during the 1990s and early 2000s. Bout gained the nicknames the "Merchant of Death" and "Sanctions Buster" after British minister Peter Hain read a report to the United Nations in 2003 on Bout's wide-reach... In Bout’s case the tactics used to imprison him might be questionable but there’s little doubt that he was a pretty nasty guy who illegally profited off selling arms to countries under international sanctions. I’m not going to cry for him ---
**Author:** ![Zach29](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Zach29](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zach29)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/82 "2017-02-12T08:51:49Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > In Bout’s case the tactics used to imprison him might be questionable but there’s little doubt that he was a pretty nasty guy who illegally profited off selling arms to countries under international sanctions. I’m not going to cry for him It’s off-topic to the discussion in this thread, but what you said may not be true. There were many people who _suspected_ him of illegally selling arms, but from what I can gather trying to look into this case, there doesn’t appear to be any solid evidence that he actually did so. Certainly not enough evidence to technically convict him of that in court. Although the $15 million fine that was imposed was given because the judge incidentally _believed_ that he had been running a large scale illegal arms business. So although it might sound strange to some of you, he was punished for an alleged crime that he was not actually found guilty of. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/83 "2017-02-12T10:27:25Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > To prevent double-taxing, most first-world countries therefore have so-called “double taxation agreements”: if you are a citizen of country A living in country B, the income tax you pay to country B will be credited to your income tax due in country A. Or you maybe exempt from paying income tax to country B, only to country A (the practicalities vary). Well, most countries of “double taxation agreements” with the USA 🙂 Actually a similar problem does arise with other countries because of variation in “residence” definitions. It’s fairly easy to be “tax resident” in two countries at the same time, even though neither country taxes non-residents. In fact, it’s probably _because_ few countries other than the USA tax non-residents, that it’s so easy to become “tax-resident”… ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/84 "2017-02-12T10:53:12Z")
Oh, and “Federal Wildlife Crime”. > [@DOJ](#): > > Thus, wildlife investigators, particularly the special agents of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, use techniques similar to those used in narcotics enforcement. In particular, controlled deliveries of contraband wildlife, followed by anticipatory warrants, often result in overwhelming evidence against consumers of illegal wildlife. With the evidence piled up against them, these defendants sometimes are willing to cooperate against their suppliers. Don’t eat any protected species when OS. And leave the deep-ocean trawler at home… ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/85 "2017-02-12T10:58:47Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > It’s fairly easy to be “tax resident” in two countries at the same time, even though neither country taxes non-residents. > > In fact, it’s probably _because_ few countries other than the USA tax non-residents, that it’s so easy to become “tax-resident”… I’ve dealt with this issue a few times when moving around and changing jobs and countries. In my experience you wouldn’t be resident of two countries at the same time, rather you’d end up being a resident of one for part of the year and a resident of the other the other time, depending on exactly where you spend how much time. You’d then have to submit tax returns in both countries and things like your tax free threshold in each country would be appoprtioned for the partial year. It’s also quite possible to legally be a resident of no country, for example if you keep moving and spend less than 60 days in each country in many cases they wouldn’t count you as a resident even if you worked there. Some digital nomad types do this working over the internet with their laptops. In this case a US citizen would still have to declare and pay tax in the US on their income, while an Australian, Canadian or Brit wouldn’t have to. (Technically you’re supposed to be paying tax somewhere, but where exactly is a rather complex issue). ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/86 "2017-02-12T14:26:27Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Actually, the US was engaging (or trying to) in double taxation, in violation of treaties. First, I don’t know which other countries tax income of non-resident citizens, although there may be some. … And that other country is Eritrea. [Only the US and Eritrea](http://www.internationalman.com/articles/this-appalling-practice-is-only-used-in-two-nations-and-the-us-is-one-of-th) tax the overseas income of their non-resident citizens. ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/87 "2017-02-12T19:01:05Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > And that other country is Eritrea. [Only the US and Eritrea](http://www.internationalman.com/articles/this-appalling-practice-is-only-used-in-two-nations-and-the-us-is-one-of-th) tax the overseas income of their non-resident citizens. I thought Botswana was another one. Or, am I confusing that with something else? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/88 "2017-02-12T20:17:29Z")
My apologies because this relates to the beginning of this zombie thread about Cuban cigars … I believe this might have to do with laws concerning trading with the enemy … even if you buy and smoke the cigar in Honduras, the money goes to Cuba who in turn buys bullets to shoot and kill US Military forces … this used to apply to North Korea postage stamps … ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/89 "2017-02-12T20:22:50Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > It’s a federal offense, so my guess is that you could be prosecuted anywhere in the U.S. Nope > [@](#): > > In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State _and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law,_ and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence. Is there an Overseas District for crimes committed abroad? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2017, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/90 "2017-02-12T20:33:41Z")
> [@Iggy](#): > > Adding to the zombie thread… > > It is illegal for US citizens (whether residing in the US or abroad) to have more than US$10,000 (sum total) in a foreign financial account(s) without informing the IRS of the balance and account details. > > So, I can have my retirement plan here in Cayman (indeed it is mandatory under the law) in relation to work I performed in Cayman and I do not need to disclose the current balance, account number, or pension plan name to the Cayman government. But if I fail to disclose those details to the IRS in a FBAR filing then I am in violation of US law and [subject to civil and/or criminal penalties](http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2012/06/04/fbar-penalties-when-will-irs-let-you-off-with-a-warning/). This does not just apply to US citizens. It applies to any person deemed by the US Treasury Department to be “a United States person”, which can apply to anyone who has ever legally resided in the USA, or through parentage has a claim to US nationality… For example, le’s say you live near your aunt in Paraguay, neither of you has ever been out of the country, but your estranged father was a US citizen. Now, you are “a US Person”. Your aunt owns a bit of property , valued at $11,000, and during an illness, gave you power of attorney over her land. Now you, as a US person, are in control of an overseas asset that must be reported to FinCen every year. Failure to file the annual FBAR report on this asset is a crime, for which you can be assessed substantial penalties for every year that you fail to report, which over a decade or so, can swallow up the entire value of the property. Furthermore, Paraguay has been forced to sigh a treaty with the US, under threat of having its overseas assets frozen or global banking privileges withdrawn, to investigate every account holder and determine which are “US persons”, and report all such persons’ assets to the US Treasury Department. So if you don’t file your FBAR every year, you name is on a list accessible to the computer of the immigration offer at JFK. Toronto Dominion Bank, in Canada, claims that compliance with this US treaty reporting requirements has cost it, its depositors, and the Canadian people over a half a billion dollars, and there are four other banks in Canada that have been subject to similar costs. ---
**Author:** ![Annoying\_Buzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Annoying\_Buzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annoying_Buzz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2017, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/91 "2017-02-14T07:38:18Z")
> [@Fish\_Cheer](#): > > Not true for Germany, for example. A German citizen who resides abroad and earns all her money abroad does not owe any taxes to the German government. Similarly, my father never had to declare his income to French tax authorities while he was a French citizen living and working in the US. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/92 "2017-03-28T19:43:46Z")
> [@Fish\_Cheer](#): > > Not true for Germany, for example. A German citizen who resides abroad and earns all her money abroad does not owe any taxes to the German government. Huh. You’re right. I was sure that the citizenship meant Money earned even abroad was taxable. I had forgotten it was “income earned in Germany” while living abroad. (Although with income from capital Investments, or Things like Music rights, it’s complicated in which Country they are earned.) ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/93 "2017-03-28T19:48:52Z")
> [@Neidhart](#): > > There’s a casino in Amsterdam’s Schiphol Airport; at the entrance is a prominent sign “SHOW YOUR PASSPORT.” I didn’t try to go in, but if I had, would they have turned me away for being an American? Age Limit? Don’t know about Netherlands, but the state Casinos here don’t allow gambling at Age 18, but Age 21 - because some People can get addicted to gambling, and the state Casinos want to stop that part). ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/94 "2017-03-28T19:51:45Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > And where do you get the idea that it is in any way common? AFAIK, the US is the only country that does this. There may be others, but I don’t know of any. Perhaps you could give a cite. I am certain that Canada doesn’t. I mis-remembered: a German citizen even living abroad still owes income tax on that part of his income they earn in Germany (capital or Music rights). I don’t think we discussed a german citizen living abroad and not making any income in Germany, we talked about double tax treaties between most european countries because that was the most common case. Also, I learned this in the mid-90s, before several things changed within the EU. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548/95 "2017-03-28T22:08:14Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > And where do you get the idea that it is in any way common? AFAIK, the US is the only country that does this. There may be others, but I don’t know of any. Perhaps you could give a cite. I am certain that Canada doesn’t. > > It is true that foreign taxes paid become a tax credit so that I don’t pay any US taxes. However, until the Bush tax cut, the foreign tax credit was on the line preceding the alternate minimum tax and I had to take an extremely favorable view of my pension (specifically how much was return of capital) in order to avoid double taxation, in total violation of the tax treaty between the US and Canada. If the cuts expire in January, I imagine I will have the same problem when I file a 2013 return. Actually, the USA is one of two countries that demand their emigrated and expatriate citizens pay taxes anyway - the other is Eritrea. maybe the USA could learn from Eritrea and threaten physical harm to family members f those who don’t remit taxes while abroad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-illegal-for-us-citizens-to-to-abroad/597548.md?page=4)