# Things that still bug me about the Lord of the Rings (movies specifically) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 8, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431 "2019-01-08T22:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/21 "2019-01-09T12:18:39Z")
Everyone assumed the Ring was lost until the events of _The Hobbit_, what reason would Gandalf have for researching it before then - he trusted Saruman to share any pertinent info. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/22 "2019-01-09T12:19:19Z")
Presumably men and elves and dwarves (and even orcs) went from stone tools, simple knives and spears to bows, ornate armor, elvish swords which are the equal of Wolverine’s claws, siege weapons, furnaces, forges; so did they just suddenly stop? Once you get to the level of furnaces and forges, do you just stop? No gliders, no steam powered vehicles, nothing? Also; Saruman throws a fireball at Gandalf when confronted at the start of Return of the King, right? But he never thought to use that against the Ents? Maybe he rolled a zero. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/23 "2019-01-09T12:30:35Z")
Tim Morris makes a good point about Tolkien’s disdain for tech and industry. Might be key to understanding his choices. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/24 "2019-01-09T16:18:28Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > 1. In the preamble to Fellowship of the Ring, Galadriel is telling the story of how Sauron was defeated via finger-chop, and then she says that over 2,500 years had passed in peace since that time until the time that she’s telling the story… so 2,500 years pass and swords, bows, and armor pretty much look and function the same? The greatest technological advance seems to be that Saruman found a way to make a crude bomb? Maybe I’m spoiled by the relatively rapid advancement of technology in recorded history, but wouldn’t you think that there would have been _some_ progress over the past 2,500 years? You barely even scratch the tip of the iceberg here regarding this issue. The First Age lasted **at least** 5000 years (some writings by Tolkien stretch that out to an absurd 60,000+ “years of the sun”). For most of 450 “years of the trees” the Firstborn Children of Ilúvatar (the elves) exist (the equivalent of at least 4500 “years of the sun”) essentially unchanged in basic technology (presumably given to them by the Valar/Maiar). For the last 600 “years of the sun”, they are joined in Middle-Earth by the Second Born Children, men, who presumably learn their technology from the elves. The Second Age lasts 3,441 years. During that time, weapons technology appears to have changed little (bows and swords). Ship building technology is improved dramatically by the Númenoreans, then halts at the point where they are sailing in large versions of what we might equate to Spanish Galleons. The Númenoreans have the ability to manipulate and shape rock/stone to create tremendous statues, cities, and towers, by a method never discussed in the literature of Tolkien. The Third Age lasts 3,021 years. In that time, weapons change hardly at all (the invention of crude gunpowder appears to occur near the end of the age, prompted by the efforts of Saruman (see the explosion at Helm’s Deep, for example). The ability of the remnants of the Númenorean civilization to engage in massive stone-working is slowly lost, as the civilization itself dwindles over time. So that’s a total of at LEAST 10,000 years of essentially unchanged weapons and living technology. Remember: the whole Middle-Earth thing is Tolkien’s attempt to create a mythos for England. Mythology isn’t exactly great at being realistic about the growth of civilizations. Indeed, technological advance in some mythologies is frowned upon (see, for example, Prometheus and Pandora). Shouldn’t be too shocking that Professor Tolkien, who was influenced as a young boy by the slow industrialization of his childhood home area to dislike modernization through technology, would create an essentially technologically stagnant culture for his mythos. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/25 "2019-01-09T16:20:04Z")
Right. It was Mordor and the Orcs who were despoiling Middle Earth with furnaces and industry, not Men. Besides which, as I note, the population base was absurdly small. Technology is largely a function of Economies of Scale. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/26 "2019-01-09T17:10:30Z")
Huh, it never occurred to me that the ambiguity about wings might have been intentional: My general conception of writing is an author with a clear idea in mind, who attempts (with varying degrees of success) to convey that idea to the reader. But it absolutely is effective, and Tolkien is just the sort of author who might realize that. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/27 "2019-01-09T17:44:33Z")
In fiction like Lord of the Rings, you can have a kingdom that exists more or less unchanged for 3000 years. In real life that could never happen. Yes, there have been empires that lasted a thousand years. But these empires are never static things. The Roman Empire of 200 BC was very different than the Roman Empire of 44 BC, which was very different than the Roman Empire of 200 AD, which was very different than the Roman Empire of 476 AD, which was very different than the Roman Empire of 1071 AD, which was very different than the Roman Empire of 1453 AD. Or consider how Renaissance painters depicted Bible stories. Those ancient Israelites and Romans were often dressed and featured just like local people, despite the fact that the painters must have known that people from faraway lands don’t look or dress like your next door neighbors. But those things weren’t relevant to the painters. And of course, Tolkien himself didn’t believe in “progress”. Take for example the Elves. Far from advancing in technology, it takes all their strength merely to preserve, for a time, what they already have. The days when new things were created are over and done with, and the best you can do is hold on to those things until they are inevitably destroyed. And note that this is a very medieval outlook. The Medieval people didn’t believe the world was getting better, or that technology was progressing. Instead they thought things were degenerating and getting worse. That view wasn’t accurate, but it was a commonly held view. And then along came World War I, which for many people of the time confirmed that all the so-called progress of the 19th Century was an illusion and all we had done was dream up better ways to destroy and kill. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/28 "2019-01-09T17:51:29Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Europe also didn’t have a civilization that had been propped up by actual magic and divine influence, then suddenly disappeared. The fall of Numenor, the Ainur secluding themselves from the rest of Arda, and the Elves gradually departing for the west left a technology vacuum that the artifice of Man simply couldn’t hope to match. If you start invoking “a wizard did it” you can explain away anything. But it doesn’t mean I have to believe it’s a realistic depiction of a human society. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Tim Morris makes a good point about Tolkien’s disdain for tech and industry. Might be key to understanding his choices. This is the real explanation. Middle Earth did not change over thousands of years because it didn’t exist over thousands of years. The only changes Middle Earth experienced occurred between 1936 and 1955. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/29 "2019-01-09T19:36:46Z")
It might be worth pointing out that, for most of Middle Earth’s history, the dominant race was one that could easily live for tens of thousands of years. Even in our world, people can be reluctant to adopt technology different from what they grew up with: Advance largely comes as new generations grow up with the new technology. We’re not talking someone saying “Swords were good enough for my great-great-grandpa, and so they’re good enough for me”. We’re talking some elf saying “Swords were good enough for me, and so they’re good enough for me”. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/30 "2019-01-09T19:43:07Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > My time problem is stuff like…“and then Gandalf went to check up on that ring thing and was gone for SEVENTEEN YEARS.” He probably got stuck following an ever deepening series of hyperlinks, I know that happens to me every time I look up something Middle-Earth related. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/31 "2019-01-09T20:07:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …Even in our world, people can be reluctant to adopt technology different from what they grew up with… This has always been my personal take on it. With very long life comes introspection and complacency, and the elves were never prolific enough for economies of scale to be a catalyst for rapid progress. The dwarves were much more ambitious, but never prolific. Whenever it seemed they were ‘delving too deep’ with their massive cities, they inevitably ran afoul of dragons and balrogs that would stomp them back to subsistence survival (perhaps a metaphor for Tolkien’s tech disdain). Hobbits had pipeweed, 'nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/32 "2019-01-09T20:18:49Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > 1. In the preamble to Fellowship of the Ring, Galadriel is telling the story of how Sauron was defeated via finger-chop, and then she says that over 2,500 years had passed in peace since that time until the time that she’s telling the story… so 2,500 years pass and swords, bows, and armor pretty much look and function the same? You can fan-wank this as a side-effect of the Three Rings of Power. Possibly the Nine too. Just as they staved off the decay that the Elves would feel, so they stifled technological progress. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/33 "2019-01-09T20:49:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Right. It was Mordor and the Orcs who were despoiling Middle Earth with furnaces and industry, not Men. Mordor had as many Men working for it as Orcs. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/34 "2019-01-09T20:58:19Z")
“As Iluvatar is my witness, I thought Balrogs could fly!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2019, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/35 "2019-01-09T21:25:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, but once we got to a certain level, we kept moving. The army we saw in the prologue was past that pre-technological level. > > No society has ever started along the path of technological progress and then stopped for twenty-five hundred years. It could be argued that [Egypt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt#Prehistory_and_Ancient_Egypt) at least tried. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/36 "2019-01-10T00:36:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Everyone assumed the Ring was lost until the events of _The Hobbit_, what reason would Gandalf have for researching it before then - he trusted Saruman to share any pertinent info. 'Know your enemy". And that you had 2000 years to kill… Or did sitting in the pub in Bree take up most of that time? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/37 "2019-01-10T01:17:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you start invoking “a wizard did it” you can explain away anything. > > But it doesn’t mean I have to believe it’s a realistic depiction of a human society. In the case of Middle-Earth, though, odds are pretty good that a wizard _did_ do it (or at least some sort of magical and/or divine being). ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/38 "2019-01-10T02:59:23Z")
Some more thoughts/problems on Lord of the Rings, specifically Return of the King: During the attack on Gondor, the orcs are getting nowhere using a battering ram to try to break down the gates. One orc tells the commander that nothing can break down the gate. The commander turns, as if stymied, and then seems to all of a sudden remember, “Oh, wait! We have that giant-ass flaming wolf-head battering ram that we’ve been hauling for miles! Let’s use that!” And the orc army of course knows of it, they chant its name. Why wouldn’t they use that from the start? What were they saving it for? Gollum leads Frodo to Shelob’s tunnel, where eventually he gets stung and paralyzed. Um, was he NOT wearing the Mithril chainmail shirt?? How the hell can a spider’s stinger, even a giant spider’s stinger, pierce Mithril?? I feel the arrival of the army of the dead feels like someone used a cheat code. They’re so swift and efficient at taking down all enemies, including oliphants, that the scenes of Aragorn and company fighting seem almost superfluous. Yeah, I get that with every orc killed they save lives, it’s just that from a story standpoint it makes the climax kind of, well, a bit of a letdown. I enjoyed watching the battle for Helm’s Deep more. I’m with Gimli when he suggests that they keep the army of the dead in their service. I get that it’s the honorable, kingly thing to do for Aragorn to release them, but technically the war wasn’t over yet. Finally, the Eowyn/Faramir romance angle makes zero sense to me and at the very least seems rushed and shoehorned. I can buy Eowyn’s attraction to Aragorn, but not to Faramir. They’ve barely spoken! ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/39 "2019-01-10T03:31:45Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Gollum leads Frodo to Shelob’s tunnel, where eventually he gets stung and paralyzed. Um, was he NOT wearing the Mithril chainmail shirt?? How the hell can a spider’s stinger, even a giant spider’s stinger, pierce Mithril?? Shelob is mythic. _“But still, she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness.”_ > [@](#): > > I feel the arrival of the army of the dead feels like someone used a cheat code. They’re so swift and efficient at taking down all enemies, including oliphants, that the scenes of Aragorn and company fighting seem almost superfluous. Yeah, I get that with every orc killed they save lives, it’s just that from a story standpoint it makes the climax kind of, well, a bit of a letdown. I enjoyed watching the battle for Helm’s Deep more. Well yes, the green scrubbing bubbles of the movie were a bit much. > [@](#): > > Finally, the Eowyn/Faramir romance angle makes zero sense to me and at the very least seems rushed and shoehorned. I can buy Eowyn’s attraction to Aragorn, but not to Faramir. They’ve barely spoken! They spent a few months together as everyone healed up from the battle at Minas Tirith and continuing through Aragorn and the army’s grand tour of Mordor’s environs (that whole ‘distract Sauron from Frodo’ thing). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2019, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431/40 "2019-01-10T03:33:19Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > Some more thoughts/problems on Lord of the Rings, specifically Return of the King: > > During the attack on Gondor, the orcs are getting nowhere using a battering ram to try to break down the gates. One orc tells the commander that nothing can break down the gate. The commander turns, as if stymied, and then seems to all of a sudden remember, “Oh, wait! We have that giant-ass flaming wolf-head battering ram that we’ve been hauling for miles! Let’s use that!” And the orc army of course knows of it, they chant its name. Why wouldn’t they use that from the start? What were they saving it for? Doesn’t happen in the books, of course. It’s Grond from the start there. > [@](#): > > Gollum leads Frodo to Shelob’s tunnel, where eventually he gets stung and paralyzed. Um, was he NOT wearing the Mithril chainmail shirt?? How the hell can a spider’s stinger, even a giant spider’s stinger, pierce Mithril?? He gets bitten, not stung, and on the back of the neck (in the book). No mithril there. > [@](#): > > I feel the arrival of the army of the dead feels like someone used a cheat code. They’re so swift and efficient at taking down all enemies, including oliphants, that the scenes of Aragorn and company fighting seem almost superfluous. Yeah, I get that with every orc killed they save lives, it’s just that from a story standpoint it makes the climax kind of, well, a bit of a letdown. I enjoyed watching the battle for Helm’s Deep more. They don’t fight oliphaunts in the book; they don’t really fight, per se. They simply sweep all their enemies before them as they are overcome with the terror of facing the dead. Remember; they aren’t at Minas Tirith, only with Aragorn until Pelargir. > [@](#): > > I’m with Gimli when he suggests that they keep the army of the dead in their service. I get that it’s the honorable, kingly thing to do for Aragorn to release them, but technically the war wasn’t over yet. Aragorn doesn’t have a choice, really. The Dead are only bound to serve him until they atone for failing to appear when called by Isildur. This they do adequately by sweeping away the armies of Corsairs and other Southrons raiding the southern lands of Gondor. > [@](#): > > Finally, the Eowyn/Faramir romance angle makes zero sense to me and at the very least seems rushed and shoehorned. I can buy Eowyn’s attraction to Aragorn, but not to Faramir. They’ve barely spoken! Eowyn spends a long time with Faramir in the Houses of Healing following the departure of Aragorn and the Host of the West. They regularly walk together along the ramparts, while awaiting the results of the upcoming battle. The march of the Host to the Black Gate takes close to two weeks, IIRC. Then, when the Ring is destroyed, and she is asked to come to the Field of Cormallon, she refuses to go because it is Eomer who asks, not Aragorn. And it is after that at some point that Faramir forces her to face the fact that she’s been falling in love with him, and should give up her desire for the handsome and puissant Aragorn. So it’s not exactly something that happens after they’ve “barely spoken”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-still-bug-me-about-the-lord-of-the-rings-movies-specifically/827431.md?page=3)