# Things that will become very valuable if society were to collapse **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 25, 2008, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807 "2008-04-25T06:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/21 "2008-04-25T17:59:56Z")
I know of plenty of horses that just exist on forage. My horses get grain, but would probably be okay on just pasture. Of course, like people, the more you work them, the more they need extra feed. My thoroughbred gelding probably wouldn’t hold up under a lot of heavy plow-pulling, but he could do enough to keep us fed. I’d probably get a mare to bred from. I think the Foxfire collection of books would be handy - people from Appalachia explaining how to build log cabins, dress meat, brew moonshine, etc. Everything one needs sto know about primitive living. StG ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/22 "2008-04-25T23:04:22Z")
Machine tools (or at least a lathe) would be vital, as with those you could make many of the things which you don’t necessarily have at hand. (One could use water, wind, people, or animals to power the tooling, if you didn’t have access to electricity.) It wouldn’t be too hard, however, to live better than our forefathers, even if you take the situation where civilization has totally imploded and we’re unable to use things like large scale power generation or have access to things like petroleum based fuels. Greenhouses will allow a wider variety of crops to be grown in even cold climates (and they’re not too difficult to build), knowing how to handle human waste will keep down disease, bicycles are better means of getting around than walking, and long distance communication via heliographs wouldn’t be completely out of question. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Bruin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/e274bd/32.png) [@Queen\_Bruin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Bruin)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/23 "2008-04-25T23:06:22Z")
[QUOTE=Don’t fight the hypothetical] Gotta go with = gun. With that you can get anything else you need , no? [/QUOTE] Don’t forget bullets. I guess I’m going with bullets. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/24 "2008-04-25T23:10:28Z")
In _The Stand_, Glen Bateman comes up with a very good point, which I think would have borne out if it weren’t for the all Good vs Evil factor. Basically, he said anyone with knowledge of how to get the lights back on (engineers, scientists) and doctors would be hoarded like gold. There might be a sort of odd slavery set up…these people would be revered, treated like gods, but they wouldn’t be allowed to go anywhere without an armed escort, and they sure as hell wouldn’t be allowed to leave whatever little community they hooked up with. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/25 "2008-04-25T23:23:11Z")
Shit, how could I forget: _ **birth control.** _ Pills and condoms would be very valuable as a trade item. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/26 "2008-04-25T23:27:46Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] I can’t see any situation in which an encyclopedia, with its highly generalized knowledge, would be particularly valuable. [/QUOTE] Not a modern encyclopedia, but a set of 1936 Britannicas would be priceless. The older editions showed you how to do all sorts of things. Formulas, diagrams, specs…whatever you need. And set for a lower level of technology as well. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/27 "2008-04-26T00:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Not a modern encyclopedia, but a set of 1936 Britannicas would be priceless. The older editions showed you how to do all sorts of things. Formulas, diagrams, specs…whatever you need. And set for a lower level of technology as well. [/QUOTE] R. A. H. had that edition, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/28 "2008-04-26T00:13:20Z")
From [_Revelation X: The “Bob” Apocryphon,_](http://www.amazon.com/Revelation-BobApocryphon-Hidden-Teachings-Deuterocanonical/dp/0671770063) Chapter 10, “X-Odus”: > [@](#): > > **B: FOR THOSE WHO “CHOOSE” TO STAY BEHIND:** > (i.e., SubGenii who “refuse to fall for it,” and never send in that $30) > > **SUPPLIES TO STOCKPILE:** > > We could go on and on about water purification tablets, first aid kits, spare batteries, shortwave radios, flashlights, candles, propane stoves, gas masks, toilet tissue, strong disinfectants, survival food tabs, MREs, freeze-dried crap, duct tape, baby formula, emergency ponchos, etc., but WHO ARE WE KIDDING?? The ONLY THINGS you’ll REALLY NEED are: > > **A. TONS OF GUNS and AMMO.** > Especially the ammo. Amateurs are always stockpiling guns, and forget the massive ammounts of ammo (casings, clips, powder, loaders) that’ll also be needed. > > **B. POUNDS OF CRACK COCAINE.** > Not for you! For your “soldiers.” > With the above, you will find it _easy_ to procure water, food, shelter, medicine, etc. > > **C. GALLONS OF LIQUID LSD.** > For you, to keep you FANATICAL . . . to make you a LEADER! > > **HONE SURVIVALIST SKILLS** that those other so-called ‘complete survivalist manuals’ don’t mention. > > **Learn how to deal with ANYTHING.** _Memorize_ science “fiction” movies like _Road Warrior. The future will be at minimum that bad no matter WHAT else happens on X-Day._ Learn how to subsist on radiation. PLAN YOUR FOOD SUPPLY. Learn which _parts_ of your neighbors are edible. You might even consider starting an orphanage now, just to assure yourself a decent cache of meat when the need arises. Buy land and fence it – a _real_ fence, the kind that’ll bring a tear to the eye of a Colombian druglord. Build two entrances: one heavily guarded main gate, and a hidden escape tunnel. Put a huge, well-lit, well-guarded, luxurious-looking house in the middle, and a small, comfortable, hidden house near the escape route. Live in the little secret house. During the insurrections of the End Days, you’ll be able to sit back, free from worry, and spend your spare time gunning down the panicked Normals who try to break in. Guaranteed fun for the whole family! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/29 "2008-04-26T00:23:08Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] R. A. H. had that edition, IIRC. [/QUOTE] Yep. I learn from the Master, or at least one of Them. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/30 "2008-04-26T01:09:36Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Yep. I learn from the Master, or at least one of Them. [/QUOTE] You have a [giant ant as your master?](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047573/) :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/31 "2008-04-26T01:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Machine tools (or at least a lathe) would be vital, as with those you could make many of the things which you don’t necessarily have at hand. (One could use water, wind, people, or animals to power the tooling, if you didn’t have access to electricity.) [/quote] However, you would also need structural or mechanical grades of steel to manufacture anything of high tolerance. In a temporary abeyance of authority scavenging existing stocks may be workable, but over a longer term scenario the smelting and manufacture of quality steel itself would be an outstanding effort. [QUOTE=Tuckerfan] It wouldn’t be too hard, however, to live better than our forefathers, even if you take the situation where civilization has totally imploded and we’re unable to use things like large scale power generation or have access to things like petroleum based fuels. Greenhouses will allow a wider variety of crops to be grown in even cold climates (and they’re not too difficult to build), knowing how to handle human waste will keep down disease, bicycles are better means of getting around than walking, and long distance communication via heliographs wouldn’t be completely out of question. [/QUOTE] You’d have a hard time building greenhouses without glass or plastic (both of which really require industrial capability), and in general, you’re not going to be able to grow enough crops via greenhouse cultivation to support a broad population with preindustrial means. And bicycles are only good transportation on graded or paved roads; on rough track you’d find bicycling to be hard going, even assuming that you could manufacture tires and tubes (not to mention other components that tend to break) with primitive technology. A modern knowledge of public sanitation, even in a preindustrial setting, might well alleviate some of the more gross health issues, and heliograph communication is certainly possible. Both were used in many preindustrial societies, including China and Rome; likely the Indus Valley civilizations as well. [QUOTE=silenus] Not a modern encyclopedia, but a set of 1936 Britannicas would be priceless. The older editions showed you how to do all sorts of things. Formulas, diagrams, specs…whatever you need. And set for a lower level of technology as well. [/QUOTE] Perhaps, although I suspect that you’d still be better suited with a few more specific texts on primitive survival methods, basic medicine, rigging and construction engineering, brewing and distilling, et cetera. Most of what you’ll find in any general reference text is not going to be of functional use. The greatest use for an encyclopedia in such a situation is as a general history reference. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/32 "2008-04-26T01:39:24Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] Perhaps, although I suspect that you’d still be better suited with a few more specific texts on primitive survival methods, basic medicine, rigging and construction engineering, brewing and distilling, et cetera. [/QUOTE] Yes, but I already know this stuff! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/33 "2008-04-26T02:02:25Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] However, you would also need structural or mechanical grades of steel to manufacture anything of high tolerance. In a temporary abeyance of authority scavenging existing stocks may be workable, but over a longer term scenario the smelting and manufacture of quality steel itself would be an outstanding effort. [/quote] Well, first of all, what are you going to need high tolerance steels _for?_ I mean, it’s _not_ like you’re going to be building anything fairly modern with the stuff. There is, after all, a limit as to how well you can machine things _without_ CNC gear. Presumably any collapse of civilization is going to involve an abandonment of large sections of major cities as well as a die off a considerable amount of the general population, thus leaving lots and lots of buildings with high quality structural steel that can be scavenged. Not to mention things like microwaves, PC cases, cars, trucks, refridgerators, electric stoves, etc., etc. > [@](#): > > You’d have a hard time building greenhouses without glass or plastic (both of which really require industrial capability), and in general, you’re not going to be able to grow enough crops via greenhouse cultivation to support a broad population with preindustrial means. A.) While you’re scavenging steel from those abandoned buildings, you can snag some window panes as well. B.) I doubt that a broad section of the population would be able to survive the loss of modern technology anyway. Once stocks of medicine, canned food, and fuel start running low, the herd’s gonna get thinned pretty dramatically. > [@](#): > > And bicycles are only good transportation on graded or paved roads; on rough track you’d find bicycling to be hard going, even assuming that you could manufacture tires and tubes (not to mention other components that tend to break) with primitive technology. You ever heard of [mountain bikes?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_bike) Sure, they’re made with what would rapidly become exotic materials, but there’s not going to be a lot of folks running around (not to mention without heavy trucks, roads are going to last a bit longer they do presently and it’s easier to dodge potholes on a bike if there’s almost no cars around). Eventually, the tires will rot, the chains will break, the frames will (in some cases) rust, but you can make a bike out of wood, [use a drive shaft instead of chains](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaft-driven_bicycle), and wooden wheels worked for humans for a very long time. Not a comfortable ride to be sure, but perhaps if you did something like [this](http://www.surreycompany.com/images/BlueOSSurrey_000.JPG), you could make it a little smoother. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/34 "2008-04-26T02:08:07Z")
I still maintain that horses will be the most useful form of transportation, especially if fuel runs out. As mentioned before, all they need to keep going is water and vegetation. They can be ridden through the woods and between trees, and navigate terrain that a vehicle might be unable to. Horse breeding would flourish in a survivalist world in absence of motorized vehicles, and some groups would raise armies of horse-mounted riflemen, as in _The Postman._ ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/35 "2008-04-26T02:15:16Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] I still maintain that horses will be the most useful form of transportation, especially if fuel runs out. As mentioned before, all they need to keep going is water and vegetation. They can be ridden through the woods and between trees, and navigate terrain that a vehicle might be unable to. Horse breeding would flourish in a survivalist world in absence of motorized vehicles, and some groups would raise armies of horse-mounted riflemen, as in _The Postman._ [/QUOTE] Yes, but it will take time for horses to become widespread again, bikes will help fill the gap (and can be hooked up to run small machines). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/36 "2008-04-26T03:24:13Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] Well, first of all, what are you going to need high tolerance steels _for?_ I mean, it’s _not_ like you’re going to be building anything fairly modern with the stuff. There is, after all, a limit as to how well you can machine things _without_ CNC gear. [/quote] If you’re not going to be “building anything fairly modern,” you’re not really going to need machine tools, either. Of course, if your intent is to build replacement parts for existing machines using scavanged industrial metals, then certainly machine tools will come in handy, though I think you’ll find it difficult to run them powered by just a human (~1/3 hp) or working animal (~2-3 hp max). A steam engine would probably be your best bet to develop the kind of power throughput you would need to operate a high speed machine tool. But if you’re only using metals that are produced by pre-Industrial technology–essentially pig iron, wrought iron, and artisan crucible steel–then it probably won’t stand up to the kind of fine machining requiring machine tools well. [QUOTE=Tuckerfan] You ever heard of [mountain bikes?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_bike) [/QUOTE] Mountain bikes are not especially efficient (in terms of energy usage) for riding on level or uphill rough ground, and even with saddle bags you’re limited to carrying less than a normal person could in a backpack, much less what a pack horse or mule could carry. As a sport, mountain biking is a challenging activity, but for practical transport over rough ground feet, animal, or animal-driven cart are more efficient. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/37 "2008-04-26T03:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] If you’re not going to be “building anything fairly modern,” you’re not really going to need machine tools, either. Of course, if your intent is to build replacement parts for existing machines using scavanged industrial metals, then certainly machine tools will come in handy, though I think you’ll find it difficult to run them powered by just a human (~1/3 hp) or working animal (~2-3 hp max). A steam engine would probably be your best bet to develop the kind of power throughput you would need to operate a high speed machine tool. But if you’re only using metals that are produced by pre-Industrial technology–essentially pig iron, wrought iron, and artisan crucible steel–then it probably won’t stand up to the kind of fine machining requiring machine tools well. [/quote] “Pre-industrial”? Certainly, a large scale operation would be difficult (though not necessarily impossible), however, as [the books sold here show](http://lindsaybks.com/), you can do things (at home) with the same level of quality (or better) than folks in the 1800s could. Also, if you know what you’re doing, [water power can run a machine shop just fine.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Foundry) > [@](#): > > Mountain bikes are not especially efficient (in terms of energy usage) for riding on level or uphill rough ground, and even with saddle bags you’re limited to carrying less than a normal person could in a backpack, much less what a pack horse or mule could carry. As a sport, mountain biking is a challenging activity, but for practical transport over rough ground feet, animal, or animal-driven cart are more efficient. > > Stranger As I noted above, it still beats walking, and one can carry more on a bike than in just a backpack or saddlebags. You can also have a basket upfront, and a small trailer behind. Sure, it’d be hard work, and you probably won’t be able to go very far, but if you don’t have a horse, you’ll be able to move more goods than you would just by walking and carrying. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/38 "2008-04-26T03:57:21Z")
Could dirt bikes be modified to run on alcohol? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/39 "2008-04-26T03:57:56Z")
I think you’d want to bust into museums and pick up things like carding, spinning and weaving tools for wool, as well as whatever other old, manual-style tools you can find. Or just situate yourself close to your local Amish/Hutterite community, where they won’t notice society collapsing all that much. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807/40 "2008-04-26T04:25:08Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Could dirt bikes be modified to run on alcohol? [/QUOTE] Some certainly, but IIRC, they’ll run hotter on alcohol than they will on gas, which could cause some problems. You’re also _not_ going to want to run one that has a two-cycle engine, as oil will be a precious commodity and not something that you just want to dump in the fuel tank to be burned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/things-that-will-become-very-valuable-if-society-were-to-collapse/446807.md?page=3)