# Think About This, You Anti-gun Idiots **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2000, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486 "2000-03-11T05:53:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![TheMadHun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@TheMadHun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMadHun)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/181 "2000-03-20T09:41:00Z")
ExTank: And here’s me thinking the Pit was for voracious debate of contentious issues, I didn’t realise it was just a vehicle through which to trade insults but, well, if you must. What’s the deal? First you assert that this is the Pit and anything goes then you criticse me for lack of logical argument? Your Pit posts are hardly bursting at the semas with logic, more like downright racism. > [@](#): > > Come to Texas and check us out (if you have the balls to seek the truth; somehow, I doubt it). Oh please, isn’t it time for your testosterone injection? But if I must indulge it would only be to say that you must be a bunch of gutless bastards if you get your sense of respect and safety from the size of your guns (I’m talking Texans here folks). Personally I get by quite the thing with nothing more than an intimidating voice, physique and enough wit to stay out of _really_ dangerous situations. How much intelligence does it take to pull a trigger? Fuck all. > [@](#): > > And when you call on US to send you guns and ammo to defend your homes and families with, I’ll look back fondly on YOU, hoist a Hefe Veisen to the Jerries and say “Deutchland Uber Alles (who the fuck is Alice?)!” Well next time maybe we should just surrender and let you fight them on American soil. Incidentally, comparing this “defending your homes and families” shit to a fucking WAR is ludicrous and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/182 "2000-03-20T21:59:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by ultress: > **If all Americans had your attitude there would not have been an American Revolution to begin with. We would still be under England’s control.** I would’ve fought the British. I also would’ve fought FOR the Union AGAINST the Confederacy. I also would’ve fought FOR the Allies AGAINST the Axis. [quote **I had brothers that served in the Vietnam War.** [/quote] I hope they came back alive and well. > [@](#): > > **Believe me it was not their choice.** This statement contradicts this one: > [@](#): > > \*\*They certainly could have refused to fight, as Americans though the years could have. \*\* So, did they have a choice or not? You could say they had a DIFFICULT choice. > [@](#): > > **Where would you be sitting right now if that had happened? Not in a free nation you can rest assured.** Vienam was a threat to us? When? How? [quote **If you think that our military men and women enjoy the act or even the thought of taking another life then you need to speak with some of them sometimes.** [/QUOTE] Not all of them enjoy it, no. But I and some of my friends have met guys who said they just couldn’t wait for the chance to shoot someone. They desired it as much as they desired getting laid. There were HOPING for a war so they could make one of those “glorious” kills **ExTank** has been going on about. BTW, Glock may follow Smith & Wesson’s lead. 😃 * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/183 "2000-03-20T22:28:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Freedom: > **Glock seems to be doing a good job avoiding compromise so far.** [http://cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/03/20/glock.settle/index.html](http://cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/03/20/glock.settle/index.html) Gee, you must be feeling really betrayed right about now… Pardon me while I laugh triumphantly… * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/184 "2000-03-20T22:47:00Z")
It’s been pointed out that the number if legally held weapons far outstrips those illegal ones by a massive figure and that it is the illegally held weapons that are the problem. Fine but that tiny percentage of illegal weapons must have leaked out from the legit pool and that tiny percentage is killing huge numbers of US citizens every year. No-one here would disagree that this is a tragedy or maybe lots of individual tragedies. I can also see that banning handguns is very unlikely too, in the UK only a minute number of folk had handguns but they fought hard even though the vast majority wanted the ban in the US it seems to be out of the question. Banning handguns might save lives but even if that were proved the case it seems to be too high a price for many Americans to pay. Every single death is also too high a price to pay-for that individual and their families. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/185 "2000-03-20T23:05:00Z")
You stupid fucking prick. Betrayed? By foreign companies? No way. Completely fucked over? Absolutely. Have a great fucking time when Amerika is “disarmed.” Hope no one busts in and fucks your mother while you wait for the cops. As a matter of fact, I hope they pass your mother right up and fuck you in the ass you stupid little jackass. You think I’m pissed now? If they fucking sign this crap I’m going out to the next gun show and buying all the russian/chinese/romanian pos SKS’ I can get my hands on. Along with a ton of ammo. Of course the prices will be sky high since all the rest of the gun owners will be doing the same. You have pissed me off so much that I have no choice but to start the first ever Jab1 Jackass award. [img][http://www.jackass.net/2000/gifs/logo99.gif](http://www.jackass.net/2000/gifs/logo99.gif) [/quote] **The Jab1 JackAss Award** Of all the jackasses around here, you are the jackass king. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/186 "2000-03-20T23:08:00Z")
And nothing pisses me off more than fucking up on a img tag because the king jackass pissed me off so bad I couldn’t post straight. [http://www.jackass.net/2000/gifs/logo99.gif](http://www.jackass.net/2000/gifs/logo99.gif) **The Jab1 JackAss Award** ---
**Author:** ![ultress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7c8e57/32.png) [@ultress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultress)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/187 "2000-03-20T23:55:00Z")
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. How convenient that you would chose to pick the winning side to fight for, after the fact, Jab1, and to pick the battles you would wager. Many Americans didn’t have that choice. Sometimes volleying posts can be quite effective with both sides making legitimate points. I haven’t seen that yet with you. I bow out, I have neither the time nor the patience. * * * _I’ve learned that if someone says something unkind about me, I must live so that no one will believe it._ ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2000, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/188 "2000-03-20T23:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Freedom: > **You think I’m pissed now? If they fucking sign this crap I’m going out to the next gun show and buying all the russian/chinese/romanian pos SKS’ I can get my hands on. Along with a ton of ammo.** Don’t forget the milk. > [@](#): > > **Of all the jackasses around here, you are the jackass king.** Do I get a crown? And that’s a lovely picture, too. Self-portrait? **You’re** the jackass if you think the insults of a cold-blooded, incompassionate, gun-loving paranoid. **Get a fucking clue!!!** The countries where gun access is restricted are SAFER (Japan, Western Europe, Canada) than those where it is NOT restricted. (South Africa, the USA.) Johannesburg, according to a recent _20/20_ story is perhaps the most violent city on Earth. Extreme poverty and unrestricted gun access is a DANGEROUS combination. You’ll probably want to cite Australia’s before-and-after statistics. Their new laws haven’t been in force long enough for us to determine the long-term effect yet. And don’t give me that “Freedom isn’t free,” garbage. Apparently, you think we haven’t sacrficed enough children yet. You’ve taken your best shot and I’m still here and I’m not going away. And have a REAL nice day! * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/189 "2000-03-21T00:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by ultress: > **Everyone is entitled to their opinion.** “Everyone is entitled to his _informed_ opinion.” –_Harlan Ellison_ And that includes me. I have NO right to an uninformed opinion. > [@](#): > > **How convenient that you would chose to pick the winning side to fight for, after the fact, Jab1, and to pick the battles you would wager.** The examples I picked were the ones where I believe our country was right in going to war. (And the list was of the first ones that occurred to me. It was not meant to be exhaustive.) I would NOT have fought in the Spanish/American War, for example. There is evidence that the government did not truly believe the explosion aboard the _Maine_ was sabotage, but they, and William Randolph Hearst, used it as an excuse to get some prime real estate and new foreign markets. I also think we had no business in Korea. The Texas War for Independence was also fought for immoral reasons. Wealthy whites went into Mexico knowing slavery was illegal and tried to have slaves anyway. Mexico rightfully tried to enforce their anti-slavery laws and lost. (There were many other grievances the Texicans had with Santa Anna, some legitimate, but the slavery issue is the one that makes me side with Mexico.) > [@](#): > > **Many Americans didn’t have that choice.** I still say they did. A hard, difficult choice, perhaps, but it was there. If you are thinking of slaves forced to fight for the Confederacy, I agree. (If there were none, I retract that statement.) > [@](#): > > \*\*I bow out, I have neither the time nor the patience. > \*\* I sincerely say that I regret to see you go. * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/190 "2000-03-21T00:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The countries where gun access is restricted are SAFER (Japan, Western Europe, Canada) than those where it is NOT restricted. (South Africa, the USA.) You stupid fucking mron. Why don’t you add up all the deaths from countries with at general access to guns, and then add up all the ones where they have been banned. Try the Soviet Union you stupid fuck. Try Stalin and Lenin killing millions you stupid prick. Try Germany you stupid fuck. Try Hitler and 6 million dead Jews. Try Cambodia you stupid fuck. Try Pol Pot and the millions he had killed. Try China you stupid fuck. Try Mao and the millions he killed. The truth of the matter is, it is **STUPID FUCKS** like you that stood by and let these massacres happen. > [@](#): > > And don’t give me that “Freedom isn’t free,” garbage. Apparently, you think we haven’t sacrficed enough children yet. I can see that you would fit right in in many of those countries. Curl up in your fucking bed, hide under your covers and hope really really hard that someone will just fucking take of you your entire life just so that you never have to have any personal responsibility. You make me sick you jackass. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/191 "2000-03-21T01:39:00Z")
Thank you Jab1. That was exactly what I needed. 2 flames, a couple of beers and a couple of hours later… I can say that I feel much better now. Thanks for helping out. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/192 "2000-03-21T02:00:00Z")
Glad to be of service. * * * When all else fails, ask Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/193 "2000-03-21T02:04:00Z")
You know how it is… Everyone needs their very own whipping boy now and again to work out their aggressions. [http://www.arch.vuw.ac.nz/courses/bbsc/bbsc303/assign2/autocad\_internet\_tutorial/whip!/animwhip.gif](http://www.arch.vuw.ac.nz/courses/bbsc/bbsc303/assign2/autocad_internet_tutorial/whip!/animwhip.gif) My sincere thanks… ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/194 "2000-03-21T13:16:00Z")
Take this [POLL](http://www.ccnet.com/~suntzu75/stn/2000/stn2000-016.htm). Let them know how you feel about gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2000, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/195 "2000-03-21T14:01:00Z")
Freedom, in case you were serious: Do you really believe that easier access to firearms would have prevented nazism from rising to power? I hope you don’t - Hitler was voted in, as I suspect you know. Do you really believe that the jews would have fared better, if the Nazi rabble had been armed with firearms during the Kristallnacht ? Sure, armed jews could have fought - with their handguns against the mightiest army in Europe at the time. Perhaps this particular infamy deserves a bit more respectful treatment than being used as bit of nonsensical rhetoric. Norman ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/196 "2000-03-22T13:22:00Z")
Just to set the record straight… I would like to thank Glock for **NOT** caving in, and hopefully bursting Jab’s little happy bubble. My next gun will most definitely be a Glock. Norman… > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that easier access to firearms would have prevented nazism from rising to power? Of course not. Firearms are not meant to prevent anyone from rising to power, no matter how much you disagree with them. Firearms are supposed to be there for you when you are obviously getting fucked over. > [@](#): > > Do you really believe that the jews would have fared better, if the Nazi rabble had been armed with firearms during the Kristallnacht ? From everything I have ever read about Nazi Germany, the brown shirts **DID** have guns. Gun control was _selectively_\* enforced. In other words, the Brown shirts were armed, the Jews were not. I do believe that the Jews would have fared better had they been armed. One guy shooting at 100 guys who were also armed is a hell of a lot better way to die than the thousands of ways they killed Jews in the camps. Have you ever read about the experiments they were doing to them? Let’s look at that time in history with the way pro-freedom people see it. 1928 - First strong gun control enacted. In our world, everybody would already own a weapon or two. (or three or four 🙂 ) When they passed this law and started collecting guns, you turn one in and burry the rest, with a ton of ammo. 1933 - Hitler comes to power. Guns stay buried. 1938 - Kristalnacht This is why we don’t like trigger locks. Guns would have been very appropriate here. [Link](http://www.pugzine.com/history2.html) > [@](#): > > The perpetrators, principally SA men, **killed approximately one thousand Jews and hauled off thirty thousand more to concentration camps.** They burned down and demolished hundreds of synagogues, almost all of those they and their countrymen had not destroyed earlier. They shattered the shopfront glass of about 7,500 Jewish stores and busineses, hence the appellation Kristallnacht (Crystal Night). If they couldn’t get the guns out fast enough to make a difference that night, then surely from then on all bets were off. Revolution was justified and called for from this point on. 6 million dead Jews. The estimates I have seen of the Chechen rebels is that their number is/was only around 5000. If only one in ten Jews stood up and fought, Hitler may only have been a footnote in history. > [@](#): > > Sure, armed jews could have fought - with their handguns against the mightiest army in Europe at the time. Handguns, rifles and the weapons they picked off the dead soldiers. How many Germans hated the Jews bad enough to die for their cause? It is also my understanding that the army stayed out of this as much as possible. Of course if a civil war had broken out the army probably would have gotten involved, but neither of us could say what would have happened with any certainty. What I can say, is that Germany would have had a hell of a time running all over Europe and Russia with a full fledged civil war on their hands back home. If armed German Jews had fought back from Kristalnacht on, WWII might have been prevented. **MIGHT** I’m not going to claim it would have, but 600,000 armed rebels in Germany would have at least made things different. Of course, they weren’t armed. They had been disarmed back in 1928. Do you think anyone in 1928 was thinking, “you know, maybe I will need this gun because my government is going to round up all the jews and kill us systematically.” Of course not. > [@](#): > > Perhaps this particular infamy deserves a bit more respectful treatment than being used as bit of nonsensical rhetoric. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/197 "2000-03-22T14:19:00Z")
Think about Kristalnacht, and then decide whether or not the circumstances qualified under this standard: > [@](#): > > But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/198 "2000-03-22T21:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by jab1: > \*\* And I hope that any cop who ever uses such a backup weapon is properly reprimanded-- That is, I hope he’s drummed out of the department. I don’t care if he succeeded in his goal. You shouldn’t try to uphold one law by breaking another. It’s hypocritical. > \*\* _sigh_ Even though this is the pit, I feel bad calling you a stupid dolt. You’re more of an _ignorant_ dolt, I suppose. We can cure part of that here. 🙂 Trigger locks don’t make people safer. They defeat the purpose of having a gun (which is, of course, the point of insisting people use them). If you come across a situation where you need your gun to defend yourself, and it has a trigger lock on it, you will likely die. You can’t tell a killer/mugger/rapist/whatever, “time out, ok? I need to unlock my gun!” Those situations don’t give you any warning. It needs to be handy and ready to fire. Does it help you to have a dog for home protection if you keep him in a kennel six blocks away? Hell no, he needs to be at the house. Same with a gun. The solution for your kids is not a trigger lock. Try my father’s solution: When I was old enough to start exploring the house and getting into places I wasn’t allowed (4 years old), he took me shooting. Showed me what guns were, what they did, taught me how to shoot one. I had the most fun I ever remember. He closed the afternoon with “Don’t you ever touch one of my guns when I’m not supervising you. You can end up dead. If you do mess with my guns, I’ll never take you shooting again, and I’ll whip you until you wish you were dead. Do you understand?” ## I said I understood, and I NEVER got into his guns except when he took me shooting. Beautiful in its simplicity, ¿qué no?. And it works. ## There are no dangerous weapons, Only dangerous men. Joe Cool ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/199 "2000-03-22T21:34:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Spiny Norman: > \*\*Freedom, in case you were serious: > > Do you really believe that easier access to firearms would have prevented nazism from rising to power? I hope you don’t - Hitler was voted in, as I suspect you know. > > Do you really believe that the jews would have fared better, if the Nazi rabble had been armed with firearms during the Kristallnacht ? > > Sure, armed jews could have fought - with their handguns against the mightiest army in Europe at the time.\*\* You’re correct that armed citizens would not have stopped hitler from taking power. BUT… As for kristallnacht, I think it would have made a huge difference. Ever heard of the [Warsaw Ghetto Uprising](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,78154+1,00.html)? A few Jews with a few guns turned back the (as you said) “Mightiest Army in Europe” for FOUR WEEKS. Imagine the difference if they had been armed to the same degree as the American Public. From the above link: > [@](#): > > Jewish Guerrillas…opened fire with their motley weaponry–pistols, a few rifles, one machine gun, and homemade bombs–destroying a number of tanks, killing German troops, and holding off reinforcements trying to enter the ghetto. The Germans withdrew at evening… And if they all had been killed, better to die battling than to be carted off to Auschwitz to undergo medical experimentation and be slaughtered peaceably. (I love my sig line. strangely appropriate here…) * * * ## There are no dangerous weapons, Only dangerous men. Joe Cool ---
**Author:** ![Freedomx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4af34b/32.png) [@Freedomx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedomx)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486/200 "2000-03-22T22:10:00Z")
Minor point here… The agreement with S&W does **NOT** affect law enforcement or military weapons. That crap will only be on civilian handguns. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-about-this-you-anti-gun-idiots/5486.md?page=11)