# Think Again: Al Qaeda. Learn more about AQ. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515 "2004-05-10T20:40:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/1 "2004-05-10T20:40:36Z")
Article answering several questions about Al Qaeda: [Think Again: Al Qaeda](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2536) I think it would be very instructive for some SMDB members to read and to learn more about AQ. > [@](#): > > The mere mention of al Qaeda conjures images of an efficient terrorist network guided by a powerful criminal mastermind. Yet al Qaeda is more lethal as an ideology than as an organization. “Al Qaedaism” will continue to attract supporters in the years to come—whether Osama bin Laden is around to lead them or not. I think the debate will arise naturally from the questions and answers offered. Especially the AQ as ideology and not an organization and the last question: > [@](#): > > “The West Is Winning the War on Terror” > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, no. The military component of the war on terrorism has had some significant success… However, if countries are to win the war on terror, they must eradicate enemies without creating new ones. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/2 "2004-05-11T00:14:14Z")
Come on, Rashak, it’s GD - what’s your point of view? If you’re agreeing with the stuff in your link, say so… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/3 "2004-05-11T00:24:33Z")
> [@Rashak Mani's cite](#): > > “Al Qaedaism” will continue to attract supporters in the years to come—whether Osama bin Laden is around to lead them or not. Well, if it’s all the same to you, I’d be perfectly happy with Osama being blendered to death. His successors can be dealt with as they appear. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/4 "2004-05-11T12:46:02Z")
Nobody would be sorry to see Osama go. However, it will make little difference as there are thousands to take his place. The movement formed Osama, not the other way around. We can’t think in western terms that there is a capital somewhere or a leader great enough that when they fall, the movement stops. It doesn’t work that way, it only fans the flames. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/5 "2004-05-11T13:30:21Z")
A very informative article IMO, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/6 "2004-05-11T13:46:43Z")
The article makes a good point. AQ is a MLM scheme just like friggin’ Amway. It automatically organises into cells and levels, isn’t disrupted by the removal of any cell or level, and can’t be stopped by anything that the assholes currently in Washington are capable of coming up with. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/7 "2004-05-11T13:55:33Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > The article makes a good point. AQ is a MLM scheme just like friggin’ Amway. > > It automatically organises into cells and levels, isn’t disrupted by the removal of any cell or level, and can’t be stopped by anything that the assholes currently in Washington are capable of coming up with. Even worse - it thrives on what the assholes shit out. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/8 "2004-05-11T14:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Nobody would be sorry to see Osama go. However, it will make little difference as there are thousands to take his place. The movement formed Osama, not the other way around. While this is probably true, there’s no question that bin Laden had been the most effective guy to date at gathering the many disparate groups which purportedly make up the Al Qaeda network. He appears to be a superb organizer. That, and the guy controls the purse strings to an extent not previously seen. All this makes him a worthwhile prime target and removing him from the scene will almost certainly show a positive net effect, both in the short run and the long run. One need look only to the U.S. efforts to eradicate the Mafia to see evidence of this. The mafia was largely crippled by using the same strategic methods - go after the known leaders through their subordinates and then pick off the remaining members and the new guys that crop up as the opportunities become available. I generally like _Foreign Policy_, but the author of that article, while it’s good, doesn’t really present any new information. What’s there is pretty common knowledge among people who are even modestly informed about this issue already. Burke also seems to be implying that the U.S. is going after bin Laden almost to the exclusion of other terrorists and their organizations - this is patently untrue. Another gripe I have about that article, is that the author seems to contradict himself on a very fundamental point. He claims it is **false** that: > [@](#): > > The Militants Seek to Destroy the West so They Can Impose a Global Islamic State Yet on the next page he says, “Radical militants such as bin Laden want to destroy the state and replace it with something based on a literal reading of the Koran.” How is this not an obvious contradiction? So, tell us, Rashak Mani, what is it you expect us SDMB members to learn from that article? As I said, there’s nothing at all new in it. If you would point out what you think is unknown to us, a more profitable discussion might take place. As it now stands, you appear to be simply “preaching” to us. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/9 "2004-05-11T14:06:37Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > Come on, Rashak, it’s GD - what’s your point of view? If you’re agreeing with the stuff in your link, say so… Yes I agree with the stuff there. Yes its sort of a Terrorist Amway… worse actually. Its like a self service franchise. No one has to bring you into the scheme. Want to be AQ ? Just blow up some “coalition bitches” and claim your an AQ subsidiary. My main intention was posting an interesting article more than anything. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/10 "2004-05-11T14:14:38Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Another gripe I have about that article, is that the author seems to contradict himself on a very fundamental point. He claims it is **false** that: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Militants Seek to Destroy the West so They Can Impose a Global Islamic State > > Yet on the next page he says, “Radical militants such as bin Laden want to destroy the state and replace it with something based on a literal reading of the Koran.” How is this not an obvious contradiction? He says: > [@](#): > > “The Militants Seek to Destroy the West so They Can Impose a Global Islamic State” > > False. Islamic militants’ main objective is not conquest, but to beat back what they perceive as an aggressive West that is supposedly trying to complete the project begun during the Crusades and colonial periods of denigrating, dividing, and humiliating Islam. The militants’ **secondary goal** is the establishment of the caliphate, or single Islamic state, \*\*in the lands roughly corresponding to the furthest extent of the Islamic empire of the late first and early second centuries. \*\* Today, this state would encompass the Middle East, the Maghreb (North Africa bordering the Mediterranean), Andalusia in southern Spain, Central Asia, parts of the Balkans, and possibly some Islamic territories in the Far East. Precisely how this utopian caliphate would function is vague. The militants believe that if all Muslims act according to a literal interpretation of the Islamic holy texts, an almost mystical transformation to a just and perfect society will follow. Your equation of “state” with “global state” is in error. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/11 "2004-05-11T14:15:10Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Another gripe I have about that article, is that the author seems to contradict himself on a very fundamental point. He claims it is **false** that: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Militants Seek to Destroy the West so They Can Impose a Global Islamic State > > Yet on the next page he says, “Radical militants such as bin Laden want to destroy the state and replace it with something based on a literal reading of the Koran.” How is this not an obvious contradiction? When the author refers to the “state” in your second quote, I believe he means the local, Middle Eastern governments, not the West. The author mentions that the goal is to only weaken the West so as to reduce interference on its part, not take over the Western governments. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/12 "2004-05-11T14:33:09Z")
Uh. Okay. Maybe I read more into that word “state” than was intended. However, are there really all that many people in the United States, or more specifically here at the SDMB (remember Rashak Mani says we SDMB’ers can learn something from this article), who believe what Burke claims—that the militants really do want to impose a _global_ fundamentalist Islamic theocracy? I think not. In which case Burke is simply setting up strawmen for himself to poke holes in and Rashak Mani doesn’t know his audience. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/13 "2004-05-11T14:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > My main intention was posting an interesting article more than anything. Snort. Or, less delicately put, advancing an agenda. Again, tell us what it is that us we’re supposed to be “learning” from that article. And what, exactly, is so interesting to you about a dull recitation of what are largely commonly-known facts? ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/14 "2004-05-11T14:39:46Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > what Burke claims—that the militants really do want to impose a _global_ fundamentalist Islamic theocracy? If AQ freaks think they can make heaven on earth who am I to doubt they sincerely beleive its possible ? Maybe some do. Some people think of creating a liberal democracy in Iraq through military invasion… Fanatics are fanatics. I would like to know where Burke got that idea from though. Still he is saying AQ “thinks” like this… not that its a serious consideration by itself. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/15 "2004-05-11T14:48:28Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Again, tell us what it is that us we’re supposed to be “learning” from that article. And what, exactly, is so interesting to you about a dull recitation of what are largely commonly-known facts? The utility of the article is not in the “dull recitation of what are largely commonly-known facts”. It’s been demonstrated that you weren’t familiar enough with these “commonly-know facts” not to make a major mistake in interpreting them. The article presents an alternative model for analysing what AQ is about, and how it functions. A model that can explain why AQ didn’t shut down when Osama was huddling in a cave. And incidentally, a model which can explain why the Iraqi resistance didn’t shut down when Saddam was captured. And a model which suggests that the capture of Osama, like the capture of Saddam, will achieve precisely nothing in terms of reducing attacks. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/16 "2004-05-11T15:07:19Z")
> [@](#): > > The article presents an alternative model for analysing what AQ is about, and how it functions. An alternative to _what_? A model that doesn’t even exist among the membership here? As I said, a strawman. And one that has nothing to do with my misinerpretation of the author’s use of the word “state.” ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/17 "2004-05-11T15:20:15Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > If AQ freaks think they can make heaven on earth who am I to doubt they sincerely beleive its possible ? Maybe some do. Some people think of creating a liberal democracy in Iraq through military invasion… Fanatics are fanatics. > > I would like to know where Burke got that idea from though. Still he is saying AQ “thinks” like this… not that its a serious consideration by itself. But you have posted this article under the guise of educating the SDMB members; what you’re saying here has not one damned thing to do with the SDMB membership. Again, and I’m really getting tired of asking this **what is it that you expect us to learn from this article?** What’s in there that you think we don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/18 "2004-05-11T22:19:14Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > But you have posted this article under the guise of educating the SDMB members; what you’re saying here has not one damned thing to do with the SDMB membership. Again, and I’m really getting tired of asking this **what is it that you expect us to learn from this article?** What’s in there that you think we don’t know? I thought it was a good article. Thanks Rashak. I think you are reaching too far if you assume that everyone here at SDMB has an equal understanding of all the nuances of terrorism (or anything else, in fact). I’m confident that at least some people got at least one new piece of information from this article or that the article helped bring the big picture into focus. Now, some will take that information and further disseminate it to other places. Knowledge is power. Knowledge will get Bush voted out of office come November. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2004, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/19 "2004-05-11T23:58:33Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > …Again, and I’m really getting tired of asking this **what is it that you expect us to learn from this article?** What’s in there that you think we don’t know? Well, there’s the misconception that al Qaeda is campaigning for a global Islamic state. This is quite a common mistake - I have seen it and attempted to respond at least 5 or so times on the SDMB, often from fairly well-informed and rational posters. I believe Islamism and “world empire of Islam” often get conflated in the news, and this leads to these incorrect assumptions. Also, there is a very common misconception that al Qaeda is a united organisation, with a single overall leader and solid chains of command leading down to a bunch of henchmen, bit like a Bond flick. The article addresses this one, too. Are you saying that you haven’t seen these two misconceptions amongst friends / family and in the media? I see them all the time… ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2004, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515/20 "2004-05-12T00:15:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by UncleBeer > > …Again, and I’m really getting tired of asking this what is it that you expect us to learn from this article? What’s in there that you think we don’t know? Well, it’s interesting the article makes no mention of freedom. As in “Al-Queda hates us because of our freedom”. That is a motive commonly thrown up by war enthusiasts. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/think-again-al-qaeda-learn-more-about-aq/244515.md?page=2)