# Thinking is part of reality **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2007, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790 "2007-09-28T10:25:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/21 "2007-09-28T15:14:47Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] The evidence is my experience and the knowledge accumulated in a long life. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=coberst] Perhaps both of you have quotes and evidence to support your position.. [/QUOTE] The irony! It burns us! [QUOTE=coberst] I like that “my post is my cite”, I shall use if if you don’t mind. [/quote] Translation: I forgot I repeatedly said and continue to say that. I have no evidence, just self-indulgent pot-fueled blather masquerading as random philosophical statements. [QUOTE=coberst] Whoo! That is a tuff one. I shall have to give it some thought. [/quote] Translation: I didn’t think of the obvious before coming here. I will now pretend I’m going to do something about it while I move on to repeatedly responding with trivialities to other people’s posts. Also, I learned how to spell “tough” from garbage bag brand names. > [@coberst](#): > > Some people might think that I am as smart as Chomsky but I am too humble to agree with them–in public. Translation: I’m arrogant enough to think I’m as good as an actual scientist\* but manipulative enough to pretend I’m not. \*I should note for the record here that I don’t think much of Chomsky as a scientist, leaving all politics aside. His thesis has _serious_ holes both in logic and in application. Nonetheless, it was very important in his field and the topic he raised, if not his actual thesis, will no doubt prove important in the future. > [@coberst](#): > > My claim is not vague. I think you may have not been listening when it was read to you. Translation: I’m incapable of communicating, so I blame the person I’m talking to. I won’t actually explain in the least what I mean until post #17, where I’ve already made 9 posts right here. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/22 "2007-09-28T15:17:54Z")
[quote=coberst] Yes you might be surprised just how you have caught the truth of the matter. [QUOTE=coberst] Cognitive science has much to say about this matter. > [@](#): > > Translation: I don’t. > > [QUOTE=coberst] > We have in our Western philosophy a traditional theory of faculty psychology wherein our reasoning is a faculty completely separate from the body.[snip Translation: While I might have a point, this is an actual argument far beyond me and I don’t actually understand it, the ideas limitations, or the fact that far wiser scholars were wrangling over this centuries ago. > [@coberst](#): > > ]The three major findings of cognitive science are:[snip] Translation: 1. People have brains, even though I don’t use them. 2. People can’t see themselves thinking. 3. I’m repeating the blatantly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/23 "2007-09-28T15:21:51Z")
> [@](#): > > All living creatures categorize.[snip] Translation: Let me beat you about the head and neck with the blatantly obvious. > [@](#): > > Our categories are what we consider to be real in the world: tree, rock, animal…[snip] Translation: Repeat last. > [@](#): > > Quotes from “Philosophy in the Flesh”. I have no actual arguments and just copied this out of a bookI don’t understand. I cannot cite properly or use the quote feature. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/24 "2007-09-28T15:31:20Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=glee] No, we are not taught this. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=coberst] The evidence is my experience and the knowledge accumulated in a long life. [/QUOTE] I am a school teacher. My sister is a school teacher. My father taught at school. My mother was a school secretary. All of us agree, using our professional experience that the educational system does not teach this. Also, our combined ages are 260+ years. Therefore, by your standards, we know more than you. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/25 "2007-09-28T15:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] Perhaps both of you have quotes and evidence to support your position. [/QUOTE] Welcome to the Straight Dope. Here you will find many knowledgeable posters and a true willingness to debate and **provide cites and evidence to back up claims**. 🆒 When one poster makes a contentious claim, it is incumbent upon him to support it with evidence. It is pretty useless to say “my post is my cite”, or “I am very old and know lots”. If you want to say things like “the word ‘Checkmate’ in chess probably derives from the Persian phrase ‘Shah Mat’, meaning ‘the King is dead’”, then give a source such as: > **[Shatranj](http://history.chess.free.fr/shatranj.htm)** If you want to say “We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality…”, then **give a cite**. At the very least you could say which subject this assertion is taught in. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/26 "2007-09-28T16:18:53Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > 1. People have brains, even though I don’t use them. Attack the argument, not the poster. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/27 "2007-09-28T16:26:39Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Attack the argument, not the poster. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] Sorry. It was _funny_, though. I personally have some doubts about **coberst** ’s sincereity, but we’re not supposed to make certain accusations here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/28 "2007-09-28T16:33:55Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] Some people might think that I am as smart as Chomsky but I am too humble to agree with them–in public. [/QUOTE] I’ve heard Noam Chomsky speak, and you are no Noam Chomsky. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/29 "2007-09-28T16:43:02Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] Thinking is part of reality [/quote] Thinking is a function of the brain. The brain is part of reality. QED (or DUH) > [@](#): > > Our educational system and our culture lie to us. We are taught by our educational system and by our culture that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality; never informing us that reality and thinking go together, one is not separated from the other. **Reflexivity is a concept that informs us that thinking is part of reality.** Maybe your educational system. Why is it impossible for a member of the things that are real to investigate the greater class? No one ever told me that thought was not part of reality. If you claim your experience includes this, give a specific example of the words used. Perhaps you forgot or distorted what was actually said. > [@](#): > > In the natural sciences truth is of the utmost importance because knowledge of reality is a precondition for success. In human affairs there are shortcuts to success—one can lie, manipulate, spin, and use force to gain success. Thus in human affairs truth often takes a back seat. Platitudes. As mentioned already, science is a subset of human affairs. Much of science is set up to detect people spinning arguments, lying, or making honest mistakes. That’s what peer review and reproducibility are all about. We understand you have no direct experience in these things. \ Like a lady-in-waiting to a virgin queen Talking about things that she’s never seen. \ > [@](#): > > In his book “Open Society” George Soros speaks of many things; one important concept is ‘reflexivity’. “I started thinking in terms of reflexivity nearly fifty years ago. It may be interesting to recall how I arrived at the idea. It was through the footnotes of Karl Popper’s “Open Society and its Enemies”…I started to apply the concept of reflexivity to the understanding of social affairs, and particularly of financial markets, in the early 1960s before evolutionary systems theory was born…” I’ve noted that it is common for teenagers to get fixated on a book and think it solves all the worlds problems. It is depressing to think that this behavior repeats when one gets older. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/30 "2007-09-28T16:45:56Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] Perhaps both of you have quotes and evidence to support your position. [/QUOTE] In my experience doing research, **Blake** has it absolutely correct. (That should be good enough for you.) Care to say what you disagree with? ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/31 "2007-09-28T17:12:22Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] The irony! It burns us! Translation: I forgot I repeatedly said and continue to say that. I have no evidence, just self-indulgent pot-fueled blather masquerading as random philosophical statements. Translation: I didn’t think of the obvious before coming here. I will now pretend I’m going to do something about it while I move on to repeatedly responding with trivialities to other people’s posts. Also, I learned how to spell “tough” from garbage bag brand names. Translation: I’m arrogant enough to think I’m as good as an actual scientist\* but manipulative enough to pretend I’m not. \*I should note for the record here that I don’t think much of CHomsky asa scientist, leaving all politics aside. His thesis has _serious_ holes both in logic and in application. Nonetheless, it was very important in his field and the topic he raised, if not his actual thesis, will no doubt prove important in the future. Translation: I’m incapable of communicating, so I blame the person I’m talking to. I won’t actually explain in the least what I mean until post #17, where I’ve already made 9 posts right here. Translation: I don’t. Translation: While I might have a point, this is an actual argument far beyond me and I don’t actually understand it, the ideas limitations, or the fact that far wiser scholars were wrangling over this centuries ago. Translation: 1. People have brains, even though I don’t use them. 2. People can’t see themselves thinking. 3. I’m repeating the blatantly obvious. Translation: People are not blank slates and each has his or her own peuliarities. I think this is a major find and can’t understand why everyone is looking at my like I just got off the slow bus. Translation: Let me beat you about the head and neck with the blatantly obvious. Translation: Repeat last. I have no actual arguments and just copied this out of a bookI don’t understand. I cannot cite properly or use the quote feature. [/QUOTE] You should be with the UN. I suspect your translations are not too accurate but they do identify a young person who thinks that to be negative is to be cool. ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/32 "2007-09-28T17:15:33Z")
glee Where is your evidence? I see no footnotes. ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/33 "2007-09-28T17:16:39Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I’ve heard Noam Chomsky speak, and you are no Noam Chomsky. [/QUOTE] You really know how to hurt a guy!! ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/34 "2007-09-28T17:18:30Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Thinking is a function of the brain. The brain is part of reality. QED (or DUH) Maybe your educational system. Why is it impossible for a member of the things that are real to investigate the greater class? No one ever told me that thought was not part of reality. If you claim your experience includes this, give a specific example of the words used. Perhaps you forgot or distorted what was actually said. Platitudes. As mentioned already, science is a subset of human affairs. Much of science is set up to detect people spinning arguments, lying, or making honest mistakes. That’s what peer review and reproducibility are all about. We understand you have no direct experience in these things. \ Like a lady-in-waiting to a virgin queen Talking about things that she’s never seen. \ I’ve noted that it is common for teenagers to get fixated on a book and think it solves all the worlds problems. It is depressing to think that this behavior repeats when one gets older. [/QUOTE] You will learn many discouraging things about life and your self as you grow older. ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/35 "2007-09-28T17:19:35Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] In my experience doing research, **Blake** has it absolutely correct. (That should be good enough for you.) Care to say what you disagree with? [/QUOTE] As Bush would say “Bring it on”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/36 "2007-09-28T18:22:06Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] You will learn many discouraging things about life and your self as you grow older. [/QUOTE] I’m no spring chicken, and I’m pretty happy with both myself and my life. But then I’ve always been an optimist. I just visited my father-in-law, who at 91 has a new girlfriend (she’s 92) plays intellectually stimulating games, composes music which gets bought, and has just been invited to a store to autograph his scores. So, speak for yourself. As for “bring it on” **Blake** ’s post is there for you to respond to. I think it is quite clear and well-reasoned. The ball is in your court. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/37 "2007-09-28T18:47:28Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] You should be with the UN. I suspect your translations are not too accurate but they do identify a young person who thinks that to be negative is to be cool. [/QUOTE] Obviously, your extensive life experiences have failed you. While young, I never made the slightest effort to be cool. I actually, y’know, learned how to do little things, such as create arguments which convey meaningful information which can be processed by other human beings in a variety of situational contexts. But you probably don’t have any experience with that. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/38 "2007-09-28T19:03:20Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Do we really need a test? [/quote] No, but describing how a claim might theoretically be tested is a good way to help people understand what you really mean. And to show that the claim is meaningful. ---
**Author:** ![coberst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@coberst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coberst)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/39 "2007-09-28T19:20:33Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] I’m no spring chicken, and I’m pretty happy with both myself and my life. But then I’ve always been an optimist. I just visited my father-in-law, who at 91 has a new girlfriend (she’s 92) plays intellectually stimulating games, composes music which gets bought, and has just been invited to a store to autograph his scores. So, speak for yourself. As for “bring it on” **Blake** ’s post is there for you to respond to. I think it is quite clear and well-reasoned. The ball is in your court. [/QUOTE] Blake might be right and I drink to your very spry grandfather. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790/40 "2007-09-28T20:03:59Z")
[QUOTE=coberst] glee Where is your evidence? I see no footnotes. [/QUOTE] You really are new to this debating lark, aren’t you? You made a claim in the first post. I challenged you on it, asking for evidence. You said your experience was all you had. A quick family poll revealed that we had 4 teaching professionals, whose combined experience was way more than yours. (I would prefer to use cites, but apparently you don’t use them.) You have no evidence to back up your claim that “We are taught by our educational system … that there is thinking and there is reality and that thinking’s job is to discover reality.” Since no schools teach this, how do you expect me to produce evidence that your claim is silly? In case you still don’t understand, I will claim that I have read every school syllabus in both the US and the UK. There was no mention of anything aobut reality and thinking. Would you like to prove I haven’t? Oh dear, you can’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-is-part-of-reality/420790.md?page=3)