# Thinking the Unthinkable: Time to "Cut and Run"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183 "2004-05-02T19:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/41 "2004-05-03T20:52:45Z")
Well, **luc** , most efforts at revolution, which is what Bush is now touting this war as with his insistence on giving democracy to the Iraqi people, end the way **John Mace** is saying it will (with a Musharraf, that is). There is a chance, if we let cooler folks like Sistani use the influence they have, that things will work out better than this. But in the end it’s not up to us, and it’s better for us to realize that and quietly and quickly exit, especially after the torture incidents at Abu Ghraib (an appalling series of incidents which there is a decent chance was not isolated, and which will make most future alleged “wars of liberation” impossible too. That, at least, will be a good thing.), which have destroyed what little credibility we had left. We are the problem, and we need to own up to that and create as much lemonade out of this lemon as we can. (Of course I’m advocating the opposite course to that of **John** and agreeing with you, and disagreeing with both the notion that civil war will inevitably follow our leaving or that we can do anything to prevent said war if that’s what’s in the cards anyway. It’s not our country, we’re the problem, and there’s really not much more to say after that. Except that we need to deal with what appears to be a major problem in our military posthaste. And then there’s this, for those who may be optimistic about it being an isolated incident, from today’s Times. It appears that our government has an informal policy of beating non-citizens up and will doubtlessly use the war on terror as justification: [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/nyregion/03brooklyn.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/nyregion/03brooklyn.html)) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/42 "2004-05-03T21:20:26Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You ask the impossible, as I’m pretty sure you realize. But your question implies its opposite: that these dreadful occurances would be the _result_ of a “Get the Hell out of Dodge” strategy. What facts do you have at your fingertips to assure us that such horror is going to be _prevented_ by US forces? Is it entirely possible that these things will happen _anyway_, the major distinction being in the very center of a shit cyclone, as compared to observing from outside? I sure as hell don’t want my kid in the middle of this, how do I dare ask someone else to take such a risk, without any plausible assurance of success? Come on. Of course we cannot predict the future. But we can make educated inferences and look at what happened in similar situations. Power vacuums rarely result in anything but civil war, and Iraq is set up for a doozy. There is too much at stake here to just give up. There are no guarantees that we can put Iraq together, but we can get some sort of governmental structure in place with some element of (Iraqi) security forces to at least give them a fighting chance. Iraq isn’t some isolated country that we can just abondon and not worry about the consequences of a civil war. If it were an island in the Pacific, maybe so. > [@](#): > > Put your finger on the primary stupidity: our firm and unflinching policy to keep a “federal” Iraq as a single entity, somehow force the Kurds, Sunni and Shia all in the same Procrustean bed. Iraq only existed because of Saddam, without his ruthless and brutal power, it did not exist. I submit that the best evidence is such that without that brutal force, which we are rightly unwilling to apply, Iraq _cannot_ exist as we have idealized it. The Kurds alone are a virtually insoluable problem, even if the Sunni and Shia didn’t so much as exist! Well, Iraq existed before Saddam, so it’s certainly not accurate to say it existed only because of Saddam. But it will be a miracle for a Democratic Iraq to stay in one piece. Hell, even the Czechs and Slovaks couldn’t pull that off. But even a transition to a 3-way partitioned Iraq is frought with danger for the Middle East. It would still take some serious work on our part (or some other occupation power) to ensure that transition was made in a half-way peaceful manner, no? > [@](#): > > That’s the _best_? Well, I suppose. After all, we went to war to disarm Saddam of his Nuclear-Anthrax Invisible Pink Unicorns, clearly, that threat is no more. Never was, of course, but never mind. Beyond that, **John** , “Meet the new Boss, same as the old Boss” is small comfort. None, actually. No, more like “Meet the New Boss. He’s still a Boss, but not anywhere near as bad as the Old Boss.” WIll that in and of iteslf be worth the loss of so many American lives? Not in my mind it won’t. But if it’ll keep the Middle East from blowing up into M.E. WWIII, then yes, it will be. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/43 "2004-05-03T22:31:23Z")
Oh, I too would love to believe that the new boss will be better than the old boss. But there’s no real historical precedent I’m aware of that allows such confidence. Saddam seemed like the typical military dictator, one of dozens in the world, did a little nasty stuff but you could do business with him, for quite a long time. He wasn’t too far out there for the US to support him against those nasty Iranian mullahs. Well, the “new boss” we’re, sigh, hoping will emerge is on about that level, isn’t he? No, the precedent is that any of them left too long in power will let it go to their heads. Let’s all agree on the broader picture here, now: If the \*best \* we can hope for now is a situation like the one we were “fixing”, then this thing has already failed badly and totally and there is nothing the pro-war yahoos have left to say that anybody needs to listen to. It’s over, and all we can do right now is to put some credible new leadership in place - in Washington, London, and Canberra, that is. The leadership in Baghdad and the new capitals of Basra and Mosul will take care of themselves no matter what we can still do. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/44 "2004-05-08T18:25:31Z")
> [@cmason32](#): > > I really wish Bush had listened more to people who understood this was not going to be easy. Instead, he listened to Cheney and Wolfowitz who said that everything would be rosy. Rumsfeld blasted Shinseki when he said that we would need more soldiers than were planned. > > However, I don’t think it’s time to cut and run. Rather, I’d like to see a true international force take over. It appears we are way in over our head and cannot continue to go at this alone. The UN needs to take a major role in creating the new government - I’m afraid our goodwill in Iraq is almost entirely used up. I think it’s also time to drop the June 30th turnover date. No one thinks that the date is realistic. Alas this presumes the UN still can/will back our play… We could have had their help last year, but we have fucked things up so badly that there is no guarantee they will even come into the country in large numbers Not to mention the un vote in afghanistan just went into the toilet on account of “security shortcomings” And, of course, you have 'sama freelancing with hits on un personnel. Dumb george has danced all of our asses way out on a real thin limb… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/45 "2004-05-08T18:33:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Come on. Of course we cannot predict the future. But we can make educated inferences and look at what happened in similar situations. Power vacuums rarely result in anything but civil war, and Iraq is set up for a doozy. There is too much at stake here to just give up. There are no guarantees that we can put Iraq together, > No, more like “Meet the New Boss. He’s still a Boss, but not anywhere near as bad as the Old Boss.” WIll that in and of iteslf be worth the loss of so many American lives? Not in my mind it won’t. But if it’ll keep the Middle East from blowing up into M.E. WWIII, then yes, it will be. We will, no doubt, bear a fearful burden from history for this whole fuckup, and of course there will be civil war if we leave. But there will be civil war if we stay. The kurds, certainly, are not opening their borders again, and they are enthusiastally “clleansing” arabs from Kirkuk as we post. The turks will probably invade post exit kurdistan, the new principality of greater baghdad will come to someequilibirim with the shiite south, maybe at that point Brahimi can pull a rabbit out. The thing is, it is guaranteed that we CANT fix it, because we are the local tar baby. No iraqi can have anyting to do with us, or he is lower than dogshit. Ditto, the UN, and every one else. We are lepers. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2004, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/46 "2004-05-08T19:17:20Z")
ASHINGTON, May 8 ? The Bush administration is pressing the United Nations envoy to change his proposal for a transitional Iraqi government once [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/international/middleeast/09DIPL.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/international/middleeast/09DIPL.html?hp) And Bush still doesn’t get it. They think they can bargain with the UN, but when the security council sits down for resolution time, who will back us against Brahimi? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/47 "2004-05-09T01:25:26Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why is it time NOW to think this? Because of the recent ‘uprising’?? Both Kerry and Bush are right if they are both saying that its far to early to be thinking to tuck tail and bolt, elucidator. I’m just not seeing how things are THAT bad in Iraq that our only option is to leave the country to disintigrate into complete chaos… > > [snip] > > The US caused this, whether it was right or wrong…its our duty to stay until things are at least stable. Besides, I don’t think you can make a case that the situation in Iraq is FUBAR yet. > > [snip] > > In short, no. Its not time to even begin to contemplate this. Things simply aren’t that bad. If this ‘uprising’ becomes more general, if the military situation begins to look like we can’t hold, if the majority of the Iraqi’s either continue to sit on the fence or even begin to actively resist, if June comes and goes without even a token effort to begin the process of putting an interrim Iraqi government in power…THEN we might want to start thinking about the unthinkable. The case for FUBAR, it appears, is being made by [the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies](http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040508-063329-9898r.htm): > [@](#): > > A report by the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies Saturday deemed The United States unable to win the insurgency war in Iraq. > > The report suggested the United States no longer has a viable military solution for Iraq. Anthony Cordesman, the author, said any U.S. military solution would result in massive civilian casualties, collateral damage, and fail to end the Shi’ite or Sunni insurgencies. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/48 "2004-05-09T02:46:48Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > ASHINGTON, May 8 ? The Bush administration is pressing the United Nations envoy to change his proposal for a transitional Iraqi government once [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/international/middleeast/09DIPL.html?hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/international/middleeast/09DIPL.html?hp) > > And Bush still doesn’t get it. They think they can bargain with the UN, but when the security council sits down for resolution time, who will back us against Brahimi? I think the administration is quite deliberately going out of its way to fuck things up. Either that or they’ll all on crack. From your NYT story: > [@](#): > > Iraqi officials who have been in close contact with Washington say the parties that will have to be represented in the caretaker government include the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, which has close ties to Iran, and Dawa, another influential Shiite group. The Communist Party is also likely to be represented, they said. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/49 "2004-05-09T15:24:12Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > I think the administration is quite deliberately going out of its way to fuck things up. Either that or they’ll all on crack. From your NYT story: Apparently, nato is noway on Iraq. Meanwhile, back in Kabul, Karzai is not even “mayor” of the whole city anymore. The taliban is stoning folks to death under his nose. But “it was a famous victory” Cutting and running may be too good for us. This exit could make the guy dangling from the choper outta saigon look like cary grant in a tuxedo for suav-ayhttp://news.myway.com/top/article/id/402328|top|05-09-2004::10:26|reuters.html ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/50 "2004-05-09T15:38:42Z")
> **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. good news from Iraq at last!! If we only have the brains, we will step aside and let these guys bail us out… ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/51 "2004-05-09T15:43:04Z")
A pan-Iraqi group has been formed to oppose the occupation of Iraq and has immediately called for a meeting with UN envoy al-Akhdar al-Ibrahimi in a direct challenge to the country’s US-appointed leadership. am I the only guy who didn’t know that Lakhdar Brahimi is really al-Akhdar al-Ibrahimi? no disrespect, and he is algerian, so why not, only I had no idea… ---
**Author:** ![Frankenstein\_Monster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ccd318/32.png) [@Frankenstein\_Monster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frankenstein_Monster)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/52 "2004-05-09T19:24:14Z")
Finally a cite that “proves” that there won’t be civil war when the occupation leaves. > **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. > [@](#): > > Responding to a question on whether a US pullout from Iraq would lead to a civil war, al Kubaisi said “I wonder why the Americans are promoting such an idea”, “If they are really after the democracy and prosperity of the Iraqi people, why are they putting us between two difficult choices - occupation or civil war!” > > “Everybody knows that Iraq has always been a diverse country in terms of ethnicities, religion, and sects and there has never been civil war, so why should it happen now?” al- Kubaisi said. Took the words right out of my mouth. It’s true that I can find competing cites about inter-iraqi strife or “bad” examples from similar situations in other countries. Point is that there are plenty of “good” tendencies to balance them out. BTW I object to the formulation “Cut and Run”. May I suggest “Do the Right Thing”. Get out before you get kicked out. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/53 "2004-05-17T02:50:43Z")
At last, signs of movement within the Coalition of the Willing: [Bush and Blair speed up their exit strategy](http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/16211.html) > [@](#): > > Downing Street disclosed the new plan was proceeding on a twin approach. > On the security side, the coalition was speeding up creation of the Iraqi army, civil defence and intelligence services > > On the political side, the coalition has accepted there "must be a real, visible difference when power is transferred on June 30. And a final definition of the criterion for victory too: > [@](#): > > “Neither is this a case of cutting and running, but showing we have a strategy of achieving what we said we wanted to achieve: the transfer of authority to an Iraqi government and responsibility to an Iraqi security system.” No doubt this later was provided just in case anyone had forgotten why we invaded Iraq in the first place. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![iamme99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@iamme99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamme99)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/54 "2004-05-17T04:38:37Z")
The SF Chronicle ran an interesting article today on the suject of whether we should pull out of Iraq or stay on. **Nine viewpoints on whether America should stay the course or bring our troops home and let the Iraqi people try to rebuild their own country.** I’m partial to this one: > [@](#): > > IN OR OUT > Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? > Take the first flight out > > Gordon Livingston > Sunday, May 16, 2004 > > * * * > > Our president asks for “determination” in Iraq. Our sons and daughters continue to die. The Iraqi people resent and resist our occupation. And we are seeing photographs of American soldiers torturing prisoners. > > When I returned from Vietnam in 1969 and began to speak out against that misbegotten war, I was often paired on talk shows with some representative of the government to present an “alternative view.” Photographs of the My Lai massacre had appeared in the pages of Life magazine so that no one could plausibly deny that our soldiers had committed atrocities. We were an army of occupation and a determined indigenous enemy was bleeding us dry. > > And yet the smug argument that I heard was, “Exactly how do you propose leaving?” How can we abandon our POWs in Hanoi? There will be a bloodbath if we leave. The dominoes will fall and all of Southeast Asia will become Communist. No government will ever trust our word again. > > And so we persisted for four more years. Twenty-five thousand additional Americans died along with countless Vietnamese. What did this buy us? South Vietnam, as predicted, collapsed without us. Now we return there as tourists and trade with our former enemies. > > Determination in the pursuit of folly is the indulgence of fools. We cannot persist without further incalculable harm to our place in the world and our sense of ourselves as a humane and decent people. We must not be intimidated by the cabal who took us there and who now stand on the ash heap of their mistakes and try to shift the onus to come up with a plan of disengagement. > > We cannot win this war. What will follow our departure may well be an unfriendly Islamic state. We may leave behind “Afghanistan on steroids,” a terrorist haven. We have sown the wind. (my emphasis) > > The answer to how we leave, now as with Vietnam, is the same way we came: ships and trucks and planes. > > [This opinion link](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/INGV06KJDI1.DTL) There are 8 other similar articles: > **[IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Flinch and lose](https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/IN-OR-OUT-Should-the-U-S-pull-out-of-Iraq-2758551.php)** > > Not only is the reputation of our nation hanging in the balance, so is the cornerstone of... > **[IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Conditional exit](https://www.sfgate.com/opinion/article/IN-OR-OUT-Should-the-U-S-pull-out-of-Iraq-2758782.php)** > > \[...\] it has to assure that a transition to civilian rule does take place, through... [IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Pay now or pay later](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/INGV06KJHK1.DTL) [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi)? file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/ING2U6KVPR1.DTL [IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Fight al Qaeda instead](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/ING2R4SJO41.DTL) [IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Salvage American honor](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/INGV06KKCA1.DTL) [http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi)? file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/ING9F6G8NM1.DTL [IN OR OUT / Should the U.S. pull out of Iraq? / Tanks don't carry justice](http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/ING2R4SJNO1.DTL) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2004, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183/55 "2004-05-17T06:28:38Z")
> [@iamme99](#): > > The SF Chronicle ran an interesting article today on the suject of whether we should pull out of Iraq or stay on. > > **Nine viewpoints on whether America should stay the course or bring our troops home and let the Iraqi people try to rebuild their own country.** > > I’m partial to this one: > > “Determination in the pursuit of folly is the indulgence of fools.” And self indulgent folly looks to me like GW’s perpetual _modus operandi_. It is interesting to me that a FOX news military pundit says this (When Greer writes of “an enemy every bit as dangerous as Nazi German” the rest of the article shows that he is speaking of what he describes as “miltant Islaam.”): > [@Steven Greer](#): > > “America is at war with an enemy every bit as dangerous as Nazi Germany. If we flinch, we lose, setting in motion an uncontainable propensity for violence and blood-spattered tyranny.” > > Steven Greer is a … frequent FOX news channel military pundit. He is a retired command sergeant major with the U.S. Army. While the co-director of the Naval Postgraduate School’s Center on Terrorism wrote: > [@John Arquilla](#): > > "Staying in Iraq also means that our military continues to keep its focus on nation-states rather than terror networks – a fatal distraction that al Qaeda and its affiliates take advantage of to their great benefit. Last year saw 98 sizable terrorist attacks, the greatest number ever, and 2004 will easily beat that grim record. > > For those who worry about ‘loss of face,’ remember that great powers often make strategic adjustments that entail embarrassment. The United States military retreated from Vietnam in 1973, Lebanon after the 1983 Marine barracks bombing there and Somalia after the 1993 Ranger debacle in Mogadishu. Yet we won the Cold War and enjoy unparalleled power and prosperity today." > > John Arquilla is co-director of the Center on Terrorism at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA. In line with GW’s record in business over the years, the Iraq adventure was a pipe dream based on faulty assumptions and promoted and sold on deceptive and inflated claims. It seems to me that our whole effort now should be to get some semblance of an Iraq government running on 30 June and the git whether the gittin’ is good or bad. Bad can’t last forever and at least we will still have some Army with some equipment left. I don’t believe it makes a damned bit of difference what government we leave there, the Iraqi’s will probably not accept it so I wouldn’t sweat the small stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thinking-the-unthinkable-time-to-cut-and-run/243183.md?page=2)