# third Lev Parnas dump exonerates Trump **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 17, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561 "2020-01-17T14:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/21 "2020-01-17T15:49:46Z")
Trump was discussing Biden’s potential candidacy months before Biden formally joined the race. 13th January 2019: [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/425074-trump-knocks-biden-obama-took-him-from-scrap-heap](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/425074-trump-knocks-biden-obama-took-him-from-scrap-heap) 6th February 2019: [Trump Rips Into Joe Biden and Democrats at Meeting With TV Anchors](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-criticizes-biden-before-sotu-2019-2?r=US&IR=T) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/22 "2020-01-17T15:59:00Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > …But the Ambassador is in the same sentence. Why malign her in the press? I can’t think of a reason. I can think of an alternative reason to request a statement though. It is because Ukriane is perceived as corrupt (by you too, as you write). If Trump thinks Ukraine is corrupt, and wants to fight corruption (it is part of his job), then a good strategy would be to get them to publicly announce it. Then they have public pressure to actually do it. Without a public announcement they are less likely to follow through. I also have no idea why Trump would want a foreign country to malign an ambassador serving at his pleasure. I further don’t see how maligning an ambassador shows that Ukraine is corrupt. Can you help me out on this point? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/23 "2020-01-17T15:59:01Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Again, you are inferring a state of mind that Trump was unaware that Biden was going to run for president despite contemporaneous evidence that he made quite clear that he was well aware. Because obviously he was aware. We can never be certain of anyone else’s state of mind about anything. Sometimes we aren’t sure of our own. This text, before Biden was officially a candidate, and asking for a statement about both Biden and the Ambassador (and no one even conceiving of her running for President) dramatically casts doubt on the main impeachment claim: Trump’s actions were corrupt because his true intent was he wanted Biden smeared in the press for his own political gain. You have to admit that. But if not, and you give a lot of weight to inferences about others’ states of mind: Why was the third dump removed (as the article I linked to notes in its intro)? Could it be because they know this text exonerates Trump (as much as anyone can be exonerated regarding a state of mind crime)? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/24 "2020-01-17T16:05:44Z")
We can be totally certain about his state of mind. There are numerous accounts (cited above) of Trump discussing candidate Biden before April, 2019. You keep ignoring that for some reason. Probably because it completely invalidates your OP. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/25 "2020-01-17T16:05:49Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Again you are inferring a state of mind. In my previous post I show why one might ask for an “announcement” without corrupt intent. If they announce it, there is more pressure for them to actually do it. If the words were “make a public vow” to do it, instead of “announce” that would be more clear. On top of that, why would he want them “on the record” about the Ambassador? The President can remove an ambassador at will, so there is no need for a public sentiment campaign in regards to her. Pressure from who? The announcement of the Biden investigation was supposed to be made on CNN. Do you suppose there is a large audience for CNN in Ukraine? Even if there is, why would they care if Biden is or is not corrupt in some way? It’s an American problem, not theirs. Why would your average Ukrainian want their limited resources to go toward investigating an American politician? If anything, I would think that the pressure would be for Zelensky et al to quit doing Trump’s bidding and pay more attention to domestic issues – of which there are plenty. Look, it is obvious to anyone what happened here. That’s really not a question. The question before us (really, before the Senate) is will Trump be held accountable for this mess? ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/26 "2020-01-17T16:09:14Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > Pressure from who? The announcement of the Biden investigation was supposed to be made on CNN. Do you suppose there is a large audience for CNN in Ukraine? Even if there is, why would they care if Biden is or is not corrupt in some way? It’s an American problem, not theirs. Why would your average Ukrainian want their limited resources to go toward investigating an American politician? If anything, I would think that the pressure would be for Zelensky et al to quit doing Trump’s bidding and pay more attention to domestic issues – of which there are plenty. > > Look, it is obvious to anyone what happened here. That’s really not a question. The question before us (really, before the Senate) is will Trump be held accountable for this mess? I don’t think there is a large audience for CNN anywhere. Unless you count people stuck in the airport. LMAO. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/27 "2020-01-17T16:15:31Z")
My only real curiosity is whether you came up with this silliness on your own, Jim Peeples, or whether this is actually a take that’s gaining traction on Fox or Townhall or some other hard-right site. In earlier times that wouldn’t be a question, but the rightwing media is pretty unbelievably ridiculous these days, so… ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/28 "2020-01-17T16:19:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > My only real curiosity is whether you came up with this silliness on your own, Jim Peeples, or whether this is actually a take that’s gaining traction on Fox or Townhall or some other hard-right site. In earlier times that wouldn’t be a question, but the rightwing media is pretty unbelievably ridiculous these days, so… Go ahead look, I didn’t see it anywhere. I could have saved a lot of typing if I could have found a link. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/29 "2020-01-17T16:29:40Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > We can be totally certain about his state of mind. There are numerous accounts (cited above) of Trump discussing candidate Biden before April, 2019. You keep ignoring that for some reason. Probably because it completely invalidates your OP. I am quoting this because it’s possible that Jim Peebles did not see it for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/30 "2020-01-17T16:30:46Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > Trump was discussing Biden’s potential candidacy months before Biden formally joined the race. > > 13th January 2019: [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/425074-trump-knocks-biden-obama-took-him-from-scrap-heap](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/425074-trump-knocks-biden-obama-took-him-from-scrap-heap) > > 6th February 2019: [Trump Rips Into Joe Biden and Democrats at Meeting With TV Anchors](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-criticizes-biden-before-sotu-2019-2?r=US&IR=T) I am quoting this because it is possible that Jim Peebles did not see it for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/31 "2020-01-17T16:35:12Z")
> ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/32 "2020-01-17T16:36:05Z")
Well, in his defense, it IS hard to read something with your eyes shut tight, and difficult to hear when one’s fingers are poked in one’s ears. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/33 "2020-01-17T16:43:23Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > Well, in his defense, it IS hard to read something with your eyes shut tight, and difficult to hear when one’s fingers are poked in one’s ears. That’s why no one is accepting I am right; you are actually defending my debating skills, which should have persuaded everyone by now. LMAO. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/34 "2020-01-17T16:48:42Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I mean, if only we [had](https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/19/politics/trump-biden-2020-presidential-election/index.html) [some](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/06/trump-asked-advisors-whether-he-should-worry-about-facing-joe-biden-in-2020.html) [evidence](https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-criticizes-biden-before-sotu-2019-2) that Trump was aware that Biden was discussing running for president before that. That would be pretty devastating for your hypothesis. If there is evidence in any of those three links that mentions Biden himself actually _discussing running_, I missed it. But anyway, the idea that Trump had no idea, no how, no way that Biden might in fact run even if he hadn’t explicitly said so, is kind of silly. When the circumstances fit, Joe Biden runs for president. That’s what he does! It makes perfect sense that Trump and his goons would be concerned about it, and try to get something going against Biden as soon as they could. But, given that Biden was not a shoo-in for the nomination then, as of course he isn’t now, and given that at that point it could have been any number of people, it does suggest to me the following question: if Trump meant to go after Biden purely to discredit him as a _possible_ opponent, why didn’t he do the same thing against Warren, Sanders, et. al? Hmm! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/35 "2020-01-17T16:54:36Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > But, given that Biden was not a shoo-in for the nomination then, as of course he isn’t now, and given that at that point it could have been any number of people, it does suggest to me the following question: if Trump meant to go after Biden purely to discredit him as a _possible_ opponent, why didn’t he do the same thing against Warren, Sanders, et. al? Hmm! - Biden was widely seen as the person who could beat Trump. - Oppo research and smearing plans had already been made against Warren, Sanders et al. For Biden, they had no plan and had to scramble. - Lack of obvious opportunity to discredit Warren, Sanders et al - The plans to do the same thing to Warren, Sanders et al were waiting in the wings - Trump and his minions are fucking stupid. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/36 "2020-01-17T17:02:18Z")
By continuing to post in this thread while refusing to acknowledge a rebuttal to his theory that has now been highlighted to him SEVEN times, it’s become clear that he is not arguing in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/37 "2020-01-17T17:02:24Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > So in order to prove the intent portion of this state of mind crime, we need to assume Trump even heard things Biden discussed, and believed Biden would finally decide to run after hearing those unofficial discussions. Well, there’s a point buried in here somewhere. For a President who didn’t know what happened at Pearl Harbor, one can simply not assume that he is aware of any common knowledge. However, [Fox News reported on March 12, 2019](https://video.foxnews.com/v/6013212463001#sp=show-clips) – same date as the text – that Biden was likely to run. Since Trump has two modes (golf and Fox News) I think it’s safe to assume that Trump saw that piece. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/38 "2020-01-17T17:06:17Z")
I remember when Biden announced. I posted here saying essentially that the same thing will happen as the last two times he ran. He’ll get some attention, but fade fast, because for whatever reason people just don’t see him as presidential material. Trump’s people are much closer to politics than I am, so maybe they didn’t feel the same way. Maybe they were able to forsee Biden’s incredible staying power up to this point, and knew immediately that something must be done right away. But it’s always been in the back of my mind that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to get dirt on Biden, and then blow your wad early, before you even know if he’s going to be the guy you run against. Better to hold off until a few months before the election, and then use it. I suppose they might have felt that the leverage they had then to get an announcement of the investigation out would fade over time, so better early than never. I rather facetiously suggested above that it doesn’t make sense that Trump would only go after Biden early. But why, really? Perhaps to send a message to others that might run, this is what’s going to happen to you if you fuck with Team Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/39 "2020-01-17T17:10:02Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > I remember when Biden announced. I posted here saying essentially that the same thing will happen as the last two times he ran. He’ll get some attention, but fade fast, because for whatever reason people just don’t see him as presidential material. Trump’s people are much closer to politics than I am, so maybe they didn’t feel the same way. Maybe they were able to forsee Biden’s incredible staying power up to this point, and knew immediately that something must be done right away. But it’s always been in the back of my mind that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to get dirt on Biden, and then blow your wad early, before you even know if he’s going to be the guy you run against. Better to hold off until a few months before the election, and then use it. I suppose they might have felt that the leverage they had then to get an announcement of the investigation out would fade over time, so better early than never. > > I rather facetiously suggested above that it doesn’t make sense that Trump would only go after Biden early. But why, really? Perhaps to send a message to others that might run, this is what’s going to happen to you if you fuck with Team Trump? As I recall the Nixon campaign bugged the Watergate offices because they were worried about Senator Muskie. Turns out they won with a huge landslide over Mondale. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2020, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561/40 "2020-01-17T17:12:17Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > if Trump meant to go after Biden purely to discredit him as a _possible_ opponent, why didn’t he do the same thing against Warren, Sanders, et. al? Hmm! One expects that he has. It just didn’t intersect with foreign policy. Or, plausibly, he doesn’t believe that his opponent will be anyone but Biden, and he’s always right, ergo… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-lev-parnas-dump-exonerates-trump/846561.md?page=3)