# Third wave coffee. Who knew? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** coffee\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186 "2015-10-30T16:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/1 "2015-10-30T16:33:03Z")
I travel a lot for work. Any city I go to, I try to frequent the small, independent espresso bars. Why? Well, I like to support entrepreneurs, I like tasting the different roasts, and there is a little bit of uniqueness in every cup. Been doing this for years. Oh yeah, I like espresso. Anyway, yesterday one of the owners of Rapido Espresso Bar in Montreal asked me if I always went to third-wave coffee shops, and if so, there was an app to help locate them. Third wave coffee? Who knew? So, turns out [this is a thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_wave_of_coffee), has been described since 2002, and I’ve been on supporting a culinary movement for all that time without knowing it. I don’t know if mindless, pointless things I must share about beverages go here, but, there it is. [Here’s the app](http://adbeus.com/) if you’re so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/2 "2015-10-30T17:16:20Z")
So what’s a “third wave” coffee shop? One that’s gone back to the way coffee houses were before Starburnts mcdonaldized the concept? Or just “independent” places that follow the SB model now? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/3 "2015-10-30T17:37:20Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > So what’s a “third wave” coffee shop? One that’s gone back to the way coffee houses were before Starburnts mcdonaldized the concept? Or just “independent” places that follow the SB model now? The Wikipedia link in **D18** ’s OP lays it out pretty well: > [@](#): > > The third wave of coffee refers to a current movement to produce high-quality coffee, and consider coffee as an artisanal foodstuff, like wine, rather than a commodity. This involves improvements at all stages of production, from improving coffee plant growing, harvesting, and processing, to stronger relationships between coffee growers, traders, and roasters, to higher quality and fresh roasting, at times called “microroasting” (by analogy with microbrew beer), to skilled brewing. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/4 "2015-10-30T17:37:50Z")
In general, I don’t know. The ones I like are: - small - independent - preferably owner-operated - make awesome coffee I’ve actually got to know the owners of quite a few of these over the years, and it’s fascinating to hear their stories. They’re very passionate about their caffeine delivery systems. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/5 "2015-10-30T17:56:29Z")
I’m not even a coffee wonk, but I do admit that I really enjoy the local third wave coffee, whether it’s through a local coffee shop or by buying the beans directly from the roasters at the local farmers’ market. I think the coffee people are getting a bit big-headed if they think that this “third wave” is limited to coffee; from my perspective, this artisanal food phenomenon is happening across all sorts of culinary categories. I can get just about any normal food product in a locally made, artisanal form. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/6 "2015-10-30T18:08:25Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > The Wikipedia link in **D18** ’s OP lays it out pretty well: I was a regular at two different shops who were doing all of that in the late 80s. Some degree of it was present in every “coffee house” I’ve ever known (above the level of diner, at least). The idea that only today’s under-30 'preneurs can do this “artisanal” stuff, and that no one before Starbucks was concerned about the ethics and quality of the supply chain, can only occur to people who have no idea that wheels are circular. But all power to the third wave, as Alvin Toffler might say ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/7 "2015-10-30T18:44:04Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The idea that only today’s under-30 'preneurs can do this “artisanal” stuff, and that no one before Starbucks was concerned about the ethics and quality of the supply chain, can only occur to people who have no idea that wheels are circular. I admit I have similar thoughts whenever I see an arty food blog post with phrases like “food movement” in it. Yes, snowflake. Millennials have invented good food. You keep telling yourself that. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/8 "2015-10-30T18:49:32Z")
By way of contrast and context, pray tell, what were waves one and two? And no, I’m not reading the wiki article. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/9 "2015-10-30T18:53:45Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > Yes, snowflake. Millennials have invented good food. You keep telling yourself that. It _is_ the generation that grew up on junk food while thinking Starbucks and Panera were some vastly improved alternative. When the truth hit, they had to reinvent the world. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/10 "2015-10-30T18:58:06Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > I admit I have similar thoughts whenever I see an arty food blog post with phrases like “food movement” in it. > > Yes, snowflake. Millennials have invented good food. You keep telling yourself that. Well, I grew up in coffee culture in the early 90s, worked at an independent coffee shop that used local roasters, single-source beans, one of those gigantic Italian hand pull espresso machines that built up your forearms, all that happy horseshit, but there is, in my opinion, definitely a new popularity of coffee appreciation and artisanship over the last decade that grew out of the independent coffeeshop culture of the 80s and 90s. Coffee culture now is distinct to me from coffee culture in the 90s and before, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/11 "2015-10-30T19:26:29Z")
Fuck that. I have considerable sympathy with people striving to perfect craftsmanship and to those creating good organic food etc., and an entire absence of crap; but my faith in the word _artisanal_ broke when I came across ‘ **Artisanal Water** ’ bottled in Norway. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/12 "2015-10-30T20:01:38Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > It _is_ the generation that grew up on junk food while thinking Starbucks and Panera were some vastly improved alternative. When the truth hit, they had to reinvent the world. B-but . . . I like Panera . . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/13 "2015-10-30T20:08:14Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Fuck that. I have considerable sympathy with people striving to perfect craftsmanship and to those creating good organic food etc., and an entire absence of crap; but my faith in the word _artisanal_ broke when I came across ‘ **Artisanal Water** ’ bottled in Norway. [It’s storytelling.](https://vimeo.com/131422396) ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/14 "2015-10-30T20:15:17Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > By way of contrast and context, pray tell, what were waves one and two? > > And no, I’m not reading the wiki article. I don’t think it’s even in the Wiki article. My best guess as to what waves 1 and 2 were: **1) Coffee as a commodity** - diner coffee, Maxwell House, Folgers, etc. Coffee was pretty much the same anywhere you went. Generally sold by the 12 oz (or so) mug. **2) Coffee as an upscale product** - “Starbucks” encapsulates this wave pretty well for most people. Of course, there were tons of exceptions during both waves. There have always been localized/regional coffee cultures (e.g. New Orleans with its coffee-&-chickory, diner coffee in the Northeast), and there have always been local coffeehouses in at least some parts of the country. The “Starbucks model” of coffeeshop (think architecture, furnishings, etc.) was adopted by a lot of independent places, though – that was truly influential. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/15 "2015-10-30T20:25:09Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > The Wikipedia link in **D18** ’s OP lays it out pretty well: > > > [@](#): > > > > The third wave of coffee refers to a current movement to produce high-quality coffee, and consider coffee as an artisanal foodstuff, like wine, rather than a commodity. This involves improvements at all stages of production, from improving coffee plant growing, harvesting, and processing, to stronger relationships between coffee growers, traders, and roasters, to higher quality and fresh roasting, at times called “microroasting” (by analogy with microbrew beer), to skilled brewing. I think I went to a place like that just yesterday, certainly smelled like they were doing their own roasting. If only I liked coffee. And a song for the OP, [There’s a Starbucks (Where the Starbucks Used to Be)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4Eb-KxSTPE) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/16 "2015-10-30T20:49:32Z")
I was gonna say … !st wave id Folgers 2nd wave is Sanka. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/17 "2015-10-30T20:49:40Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > **1) Coffee as a commodity** - diner coffee, Maxwell House, Folgers, etc. Coffee was pretty much the same anywhere you went. Generally sold by the 12 oz (or so) mug. > > **2) Coffee as an upscale product** - “Starbucks” encapsulates this wave pretty well for most people. I sincerely hope that’s not what the Third Wavers mean or think. “Ludicrously simplified” doesn’t begin to cover it. Coffee has a long and complex social/culinary history. It’s held a place closer to vintage wine in more times and cultures than to just “a cuppa joe at a diner.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/18 "2015-10-30T21:16:24Z")
No I am sure these guys opening up fancy coffee shops all think coffee started in 1940’s American diners. Because everyone is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/19 "2015-10-30T22:21:53Z")
I’d be happy to support these places if only they’d burn some goddamn beans for me. I do not like medium to mild roast coffee, don’t like the acid, don’t like the floral notes, don’t care about the foodie babble about 'we couldn’t possibly ruin these beans by overroasting." I like burnt beans. If it doesn’t have a real dark roast, I won’t patronize the shop. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/20 "2015-10-30T22:32:19Z")
I know we’re not reading the linked Wikipedia article for some reason, but it has a brief history of who coined the term and what it generally means. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186.md?page=2)