# Third wave coffee. Who knew? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** coffee\ **Created:** [October 30, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186 "2015-10-30T16:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/21 "2015-10-31T00:42:37Z")
> [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](#): > > I’d be happy to support these places if only they’d burn some goddamn beans for me. I do not like medium to mild roast coffee, don’t like the acid, don’t like the floral notes, don’t care about the foodie babble about 'we couldn’t possibly ruin these beans by overroasting." I like burnt beans. If it doesn’t have a real dark roast, I won’t patronize the shop. Take ten more steps… right turn into Starbucks. There. All done. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/22 "2015-10-31T03:44:35Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Take ten more steps… right turn into Starbucks. There. All done. I was gonna say, if you like burnt, Starbucks should be your place, but it’s honestly gotten better (for those of us who don’t like burnt coffee) since they’ve introduced that Pike’s Place as the house blend about, I dunno, five years ago? That seriously cut down on the burnt flavor. Maybe it’s still there, but it’s under the threshold where it bugs me, whereas the beans before Pike’s Place were far too roasted for my tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/23 "2015-10-31T14:58:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I was gonna say, if you like burnt, Starbucks should be your place, but it’s honestly gotten better (for those of us who don’t like burnt coffee) since they’ve introduced that Pike’s Place as the house blend about, I dunno, five years ago? That seriously cut down on the burnt flavor. Maybe it’s still there, but it’s under the threshold where it bugs me, whereas the beans before Pike’s Place were far too roasted for my tastes. Well, first, I should have made that “nine steps” - SB added two thousand outlets since I last glanced at the total. Last year. The whole dark roast thing is a bit of a smirkfest in some ways, because over-roasted coffee has pretty much always been considered inferior (like a filet toasted to leather). Even more so, “dark roasting” was a way to make inferior beans sorta-kinda better, but in an entirely cold duck/Boone’s Farm kind of way. Dark roast was the lipstick on the pig that sold to the least discerning and cheapest buyers. So SB turning it into some kind of cool, hip, glam, aficionado kind of thing is… smirkable. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/24 "2015-10-31T15:05:46Z")
I figured it was a count of the number of animals that have eaten and shit it out before you drink it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/25 "2015-10-31T15:30:19Z")
it is mainly hipster bullshit I reckon. Creating the illusion of difference where little exists or forcing change for change’s sake and so allowing for little islands of faux expertise to spring up and be worn as badges of “specialness”. I have no time for it. Forgive the stealth brag but I’m in Rome as we speak and waves one and two seem to have passed it by. The coffee here is just as it was 20 years ago, small, strong, cheap and served at the correct temperature with the same type and amount of milk (or not) as it ever was. Plus ca change as they don’t say here. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/26 "2015-10-31T19:41:54Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > **1) Coffee as a commodity**. . . > > **2) Coffee as an upscale product** - “Starbucks” encapsulates this wave pretty well for most people. > > Of course, there were tons of exceptions during both waves. There have always been localized/regional coffee cultures (e.g. New Orleans with its coffee-&-chickory, diner coffee in the Northeast), and there have always been local coffeehouses in at least some parts of the country. The “Starbucks model” of coffeeshop (think architecture, furnishings, etc.) was adopted by a lot of independent places, though – that was truly influential. I think that actually it was vice versa. Starbucks was derived from what is now being called the third wave. They saw the appeal in those localized, regional coffee cultures, and franchised it. The “third wave” started _ **before** _ Starbucks, and it is what made Starbucks possible. Really what happened is that the “third wave” (which really was a second “wave”), was happening around colleges and universities–especially those that had “junior year abroad” programs, whereby students would come back from Europe with a taste for espresso, etc. College students in general started to want these drinks, and as they graduated and went off to work away from college environments, there was a market waiting to be filled, so Starbucks stepped in. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/27 "2015-10-31T20:07:27Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > I admit I have similar thoughts whenever I see an arty food blog post with phrases like “food movement” in it. > > Yes, snowflake. Millennials have invented good food. You keep telling yourself that. This is unfair, I think. While quality products might have been available _somewhere_ _sometimes_ if you were in the right place at the right time, it really is a genuine phenomenon that really good coffee is becoming easy to access through new coffee houses all over the place. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/28 "2015-10-31T21:02:11Z")
Around here, I assume it’s [Philz.](http://www.philzcoffee.com) Yeah, I thought it was noticeably better even than Peet’s (which is really good), but I just don’t like the vibe there. And at almost 2x the price, it better be better! ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/29 "2015-10-31T21:25:40Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This is unfair, I think. While quality products might have been available _somewhere_ _sometimes_ if you were in the right place at the right time, it really is a genuine phenomenon that really good coffee is becoming easy to access through new coffee houses all over the place. I would disagree, without any particular hard evidence to point to. I found quality, source-conscious coffee houses pretty much everywhere I looked pre-2000. The idea that coffee houses of earlier eras just served something a notch above diner java in a cool atmosphere is nonsense. It’s NOT a new idea. If it’s displacing Starbucks, or Starbucky “independents,” good. But it’s a return to an idea that was flourishing in at least the late 1970s/early 80s, even if you don’t count earlier iterations going back a couple of hundred years. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/30 "2015-10-31T21:38:37Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Fuck that. I have considerable sympathy with people striving to perfect craftsmanship and to those creating good organic food etc., and an entire absence of crap; but my faith in the word _artisanal_ broke when I came across ‘ **Artisanal Water** ’ bottled in Norway. Maybe they just misspelled “artesian?” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/31 "2015-10-31T21:44:02Z")
It’s not a new idea, but the mainstream popularity of it is. In the 90s, at least here in Midwestern Chicago, I only really knew of a handful of coffeeshops that had great coffee, and coffee culture then, at least to me, was centered around the coffeehouse as a gathering place, not so much for the quality of the coffee itself. You’d go for decent coffee, but you’d mainly go to socialize, to scribble your thoughts in a journal, to sketch, to smoke (when smoking was allowed), to listen to a band play, etc. Quality of coffee was important, but it wasn’t stressed in the manner that it is today. And, frankly, I really don’t like most of the really high-end coffee that you can find easily these days–but finding that type of coffee a couple decades ago around here, at least, took legwork. I don’t understand why people get offended or defensive about trends. There clearly is a new wave of coffee appreciation going on, just like there was a wave of beer appreciation fomenting a couple decades ago, or rye whiskey, or barbecue. And I’m happy for and embrace these trends, as they bring more choices and higher quality food and drink to me. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/32 "2015-10-31T22:31:18Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Fuck that. I have considerable sympathy with people striving to perfect craftsmanship and to those creating good organic food etc., and an entire absence of crap; but my faith in the word _artisanal_ broke when I came across ‘ **Artisanal Water** ’ bottled in Norway. How about artisanal firewood? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TBb9O-aW4zI/hqdefault.jpg "Maker Series: Artisanal Firewood | CBC Radio (Comedy/Satire)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBb9O-aW4zI) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/33 "2015-10-31T22:44:31Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Maybe they just misspelled “artesian?” Or **Claverhouse** misunderstood. Norway has Voss brand water, for example, which is definitely a pretentious presentation and claims to be artesian, but to my knowledge has never been labeled “artisanal.” > [@Rick](#): > > How about artisanal firewood? > [http://youtu.be/TBb9O-aW4zI](http://youtu.be/TBb9O-aW4zI) This is a joke, of course. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/34 "2015-10-31T22:51:19Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > How about artisanal firewood? > [http://youtu.be/TBb9O-aW4zI](http://youtu.be/TBb9O-aW4zI) That was fucking hilarious! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/35 "2015-11-01T01:54:54Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Or **Claverhouse** > This is a joke, of course. Of course not. Don’t you pay $1400.00 per piece for firewood? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/36 "2015-11-01T04:10:16Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I know we’re not reading the linked Wikipedia article for some reason, . Seriously, what’s with this? The OP introduces a topic, helpfully provides a link that has a decent overview of what the topic actually is, and people are like, “I ain’t gonna READ a link and find out what it means! Fuck that, I’ll just criticize what I THINK it probably is about!” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/37 "2015-11-01T04:14:22Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Of course not. Don’t you pay $1400.00 per piece for firewood? > 😃 Yeah, well, maybe some people didn’t watch the video. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/38 "2015-11-01T17:00:57Z")
OP, here. Interesting flow of conversation! It looks like I’m not alone in not knowing the term “third wave” coffee. I’m curious to know if any of you were aware of it and when you started seeing it, just so I can assess my degree of unhipness. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/39 "2015-11-01T17:05:37Z")
I never heard it used until I saw the title of this thread, but I guessed pretty quickly what it meant. And I’m a coffee enthusiast. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-wave-coffee-who-knew/736186/40 "2015-11-01T18:15:18Z")
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