# "Third World America" - Is this possible in our lifetimes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102 "2012-09-18T20:08:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/21 "2012-09-19T15:19:21Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Ms. Huffington makes the point that too big too fail means too big, period. I have a hard time arguing with that - maybe the bank bailouts should have included an orderly dismantling of the largest of the banks in the US. I don’t think the individual banks were too big to fail, Lehman Bros. being an example. The financial industry as a whole had to be saved or we likely would have been fighting for a spot in the soup line, so in that regard, the bailouts were a benefit to everyone, not just the bankers. The bailout maybe could have been administered better but I think it was necessasry. Otherwise, I think Ms. Huffington has a point. The U.S. isn’t a third world country _now_, but it is _trending_ that way. Money, and thus power and influence, is being more concentrated in a small group. American democracy was supposed to be a check against that, but when money is allowed to influence the electorate like it is now, and when lying becomes an acceptable campaign strategy, “one man, one vote” becomes an empty concept. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/22 "2012-09-19T15:27:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I sometimes worry that the US simply will never rein in deficit spending until it goes absolutely completely bankrupt, like a latter-day Habsburg Spain. This is possible, although how likely is hard to say. But if the US goes down in flames, the rest of the world is coming down as well. Plus I don’t think the EU is going to be any more responsible about spending than the US. In other words we may end up with a Third World America, on a planet where there is no one else any better off. Including China and India, BTW - they lose US markets and they are going down hard. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/23 "2012-09-19T16:28:45Z")
If I’m reading the linked articles on education right, the US American school system comes in 17th out of 30 countries tested by the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), but that’s okay because a whole lot of students in the US aren’t white? **Esox** , thanks for reminding me of one of the most important points that I forgot - the way the lobbying system in the US is set up means that money, power and influence are making the decisions for politicians. **John,** I’m in Canada - my infrastructure here is irrelevant. 🙂 **Shodan’s** point about the US taking the rest of us down is what alarms me - Canada is strongly tied to the US, and if you guys don’t get your shit squared away, you’re going to ruin it for all of us. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/24 "2012-09-19T16:34:31Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If I’m reading the linked articles on education right, the US American school system comes in 17th out of 30 countries tested by the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), but that’s okay because a whole lot of students in the US aren’t white? I don’t think anyone thinks it’s okay, but the US is a more diverse country than many others, and this may explain why our results look like they do. And one need not drag in genetic explanations or the idea that minorities are inferior. Assume the differences in test scores are entirely due to racism, or cultural differences. It still stands to reason that a country with fewer minorities to be disadvantaged in their test scores by racism and cultural differences is going to do better overall than a less homogeneous one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/25 "2012-09-19T16:52:31Z")
The great thing about hitting yourself in the face with a hammer is that it feels so good when you stop. So now that we’re winding down the hundreds of billions of dollars poured down a rathole blowing up mud huts and camels in central asia, we’ll have a bit more money to service the national debt. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/26 "2012-09-19T17:21:05Z")
As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, manufacturing in the US is not dead yet. Here’s an article in today’s San Jose Mercury New about how some types of manufacturing are actually moving back to the US from China: > **[Made in the Bay Area: Altierre sees automation as key to Silicon Valley...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2012/09/18/made-in-the-bay-area-altierre-sees-automation-as-key-to-silicon-valley-manufacturing/)** > > Made in the Bay Area: Altierre sees automation as key to Silicon Valley manufacturing ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/27 "2012-09-19T17:30:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I don’t think anyone thinks it’s okay, but the US is a more diverse country than many others, and this may explain why our results look like they do. > > And one need not drag in genetic explanations or the idea that minorities are inferior. Assume the differences in test scores are entirely due to racism, or cultural differences. It still stands to reason that a country with fewer minorities to be disadvantaged in their test scores by racism and cultural differences is going to do better overall than a less homogeneous one. > > Regards, > Shodan I guess the point I was working towards was that if you have low test scores for students overall because of a diverse population, it would make more sense to me to take that into account when setting up your educational system, rather than just shrugging off the test results and chalking it up to demographics. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/28 "2012-09-19T18:13:59Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > according to the ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers), the US needs to invest 2.2 trillion dollars in infrastructure over the next five years to bring it up to a passable level - there is only 975 billion dollars budgeted for infrastructure over that period. The infrastructure problems speak to quality of life for everyone, as well as public safety concerns. What if the US military claimed that it needed $2.2 trillion to effectively protect the US from outside threats but had much less budgeted? Would you be worried? There is a lot of money being made in the US, in part because of the wonderful infrastructure. If businesses started losing much money due to crumbling infrastructure two things would happen: 1. They’d ramp up the pressure on the government to fix it. 2. They’d fix some of the problems themselves (similar to what Google is doing with internet access in some areas). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/29 "2012-09-19T18:46:27Z")
Or they’d move somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/30 "2012-09-19T18:56:24Z")
> [@gatorslap](#): > > Is “third world” even a valid term anymore, 20+ years after the fall of the USSR? People still use it but it isn’t the “correct” academic term anymore. Now countries are divided into three categories: Core countries (The U.S., UK, Germany, etc) Semi-Core (Mexico) Periphery (Somalia) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/31 "2012-09-20T02:49:48Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > What if the US military claimed that it needed $2.2 trillion to effectively protect the US from outside threats but had much less budgeted? Would you be worried?\ I’m not sure what your point is - that the US army isn’t being given _enough_ money? Haven’t the Oil Wars cost the US a whole lot more than $2.2 trillion? > [@RandMcnally](#): > > People still use it but it isn’t the “correct” academic term anymore. Now countries are divided into three categories: > > Core countries (The U.S., UK, Germany, etc) > Semi-Core (Mexico) > Periphery (Somalia) That’s interesting - I can’t see the US ever not being a Core country. The tagline for the book is, “How Our Politicians Are Abandoning the Middle Class and Betraying the American Dream” - maybe she buried the lead. The American dream was work hard and get ahead; now it seems like it is work hard and stay still or slip backwards (from this outsider’s perspective, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/32 "2012-09-20T05:37:22Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > If I’m reading the linked articles on education right, the US American school system comes in 17th out of 30 countries tested by the Program for International Student Assessment (PISA), but that’s okay because a whole lot of students in the US aren’t white? What it shows is that the public education system itself works perfectly well. Asian Americans outperform Asians in Asia, european americans generally outperform europeans in europe etc. So the schools themselves are actually effective. The relatively weak overall educational _outcomes_ are not due to the schools themselves, but the demographics ([the post I linked to explains why it is crazy to blame the schools for this](http://super-economy.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-scores-usa.html)). ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/33 "2012-09-20T06:59:08Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Education - not only are the public schools part of the crumbling infrastructure, but the problems extend to the teachers and the results. The teachers are hard to fire if they aren’t performing due to a strong union, and the kids aren’t comparing well to other nations apparently. The post-secondary schools might be fine, but if you get out of public school not being able to read well or do math or understand science, you’re still not going to get far, are you? That’s the same everywhere. In Denmark around 15-20% leave 9-10 years of primary school without being able to read, add two numbers together, or much of anything else. Some people are just too stupid to learn and there’s not much that can be done about it. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/34 "2012-09-20T08:11:02Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > People still use it but it isn’t the “correct” academic term anymore. Now countries are divided into three categories: > > Core countries (The U.S., UK, Germany, etc) > Semi-Core (Mexico) > Periphery (Somalia) Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/35 "2012-09-20T08:34:23Z")
As a nation, no. But if you’ve ever been to backwoods Appalachia or to an Indian Reservation you might think, “Still?” ---
**Author:** ![moonshot925](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@moonshot925](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moonshot925)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/36 "2012-09-20T08:51:33Z")
American manufacturing output was the largest in the world as of 2010. > **[R42135.pdf](https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R42135.pdf)** > > 1083.77 KB The reason why we have lost so many manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years is that they are no longer needed. Machines can do their work much more efficiently. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/37 "2012-09-20T10:52:57Z")
> [@moonshot925](#): > > American manufacturing output was the largest in the world as of 2010. > > [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf) > > The reason why we have lost so many manufacturing jobs over the last 20 years is that they are no longer needed. Machines can do their work much more efficiently. Either way, it’s a major social and economic problem. > [@](#): > > The project is at the sharp end of one of America’s biggest economic problems: the decline in work among men. Of all the big, rich Group of Seven economies, America has the lowest share of “prime age” males in work: just over 80% of those aged between 25 and 54 have a job. In the late 1960s 95% worked… > > Widespread male worklessness has huge economic, fiscal and social costs. It reduces America’s economic potential. It deepens its budgetary hole, because less tax is raised and more is spent on those out of work. The fraction of prime-age men on disability benefits, for instance, has more than tripled from 1.5% in 1970 to 4.9%. Federal spending on such benefits amounts to $120 billion a year, almost 1% of GDP. > > As fewer men work, poverty becomes more entrenched. Back in the mid-1960s Daniel Patrick Moynihan raised the alarm about the link between joblessness and the decline of the black American family. He argued that men without work become less attractive as marriage partners and more likely to turn to crime. Male employment rates and marriage rates have fallen since, for both blacks and whites. The proportions of white men without jobs and of white children living with one parent are both roughly where they were for blacks when Moynihan’s report was published. > > Despite all this, worklessness among less-educated men does not seem to be a priority for American politicians of either party. This is a pity, not just because the problem is big but also because a close look at its causes suggests reforms that could help to counter the trend… > > The main reason why fewer men are working is that sweeping structural changes in rich economies have reduced the demand for all less-skilled workers. Manufacturing has declined as a share of GDP, and productivity growth has enabled factories to produce more with fewer people. Technological advances require higher skills. For the low-skilled, low demand has meant lower wages, both relative and absolute. This in turn reduces the incentive to find a job, especially if disability payments or a working spouse provide an income. > > Men have been hit harder than women by these shifts. They are likelier to work in manufacturing; women have been better represented in sectors, such as health care and education, where most job growth has taken place. Women have also done more than men to improve their academic credentials: in most rich countries they are likelier than men to go to university. > **[Decline of the working man](https://www.economist.com/briefing/2011/04/28/decline-of-the-working-man)** > > Why ever fewer low-skilled American men have jobs ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/38 "2012-09-20T11:36:15Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > People still use it but it isn’t the “correct” academic term anymore. Now countries are divided into three categories: > > Core countries (The U.S., UK, Germany, etc) > Semi-Core (Mexico) > Periphery (Somalia) What? I’ve never heard this, although it sounds like some version of old fashioned dependency theory (metropole, satellite). Generally what you here is “Developed/industrialized countries, rapidly developing/industrializing countries and developing countries.” You may also get blocks of countries like G20s or BRICS. Another term that is sometimes used is the “Global North” and the “Global South” ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/39 "2012-09-20T18:47:46Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is - that the US army isn’t being given _enough_ money? Haven’t the Oil Wars cost the US a whole lot more than $2.2 trillion? The US Military has reason to inflate the amount of money they think they need and they always want more. The ASCE probably has a similar incentive. I was trying (poorly) to compare the similarities. You also mentioned that the money is needed to “bring it [the infrastructure] up to a passable level”. I don’t know if those are your words or the ASCE’s but at worst I’d say the current level is passable. It all sounds to me like hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102/40 "2012-09-20T18:52:41Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The US Military has reason to inflate the amount of money they think they need and they always want more. Depends. Overall spending, it’s true that they never want a decrease. However, often they are opposed to specific huge programs that will only line politically connected pockets and provide only a limited help to military capabilities, because those dollars could have been better spent on effective programs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/third-world-america-is-this-possible-in-our-lifetimes/635102.md?page=3)