# This act of agnostic teenage rebellion was not my idea... **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041 "2009-03-02T18:59:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/61 "2009-03-04T11:55:25Z")
You said in the prior thread she was 15 or 16, so she might even be 17 by now. She’ll survive her parents. I just hope the don’t try to send her to an equally loony college Like Bob Jones University. You might help her more by helping her prepare to sever the apron strings. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/62 "2009-03-04T16:46:14Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I think she should make up a verse entirely, and vaguely claim “It’s in there somewhere”. I tried hard not to laugh at that and failed miserably. If Jess was looking for something incendiary in the Book of Judges, she quit way too early- the story of Samson is loaded with good materials, BUT everybody’s favorite has GOT to be… THE LEVITE’S CONCUBINE!!! :eek::eek::eek: ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/63 "2009-03-04T17:01:02Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > You said in the prior thread she was 15 or 16, so she might even be 17 by now. She’ll survive her parents. I just hope the don’t try to send her to an equally loony college Like Bob Jones University. You might help her more by helping her prepare to sever the apron strings. No BJU- the family is Pentecostal. BJU-brand fund’ism is anti-Pentecostal. Compared to the Joneses, the Falwells are liberal compromisers. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/64 "2009-03-04T17:07:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I had no clean well-lighted place when I was that age, so I want to give her one if possible. Beautiful literary reference, there.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/65 "2009-03-04T18:29:31Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > … eradicating all but one boat-load of life with a flood … For which there is no physical evidence to support the story, which predated the Bible anyway. > [@](#): > > … loosing a whole series of plagues on Egypt culminating in the selective death of every firstborn except the Israelites’, drowning Pharaoh’s armies in the Red Sea More events with no extra-biblical support. [In fact, there is no evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt.](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/world/africa/03exodus.html) > [@](#): > > … and too many more beside to list individually, then yeah, there’s a good chance He’d find iron chariots a bridge too far. Still, perhaps you ought to look at the Israelites’ history from Exodus onwards of flinching, trembling, prevaricating and vacillating, and consider where that might plausibly have something to do with the events in Judges 1:19, and so might your niece. **History?** How about mythology? > [@](#): > > But when you selectively pick a verse from the Bible and tailor your interpretation of it simply in order to declare brattily “See? God’s not so great after all!”, then don’t be over-surprised when you piss off the people you were trying to piss off, and really don’t try to pretend that’s not what you were doing. It’s that whole rational clear thinking thing. Rational, bitchy and provocative are not mutually exclusive. > [@](#): > > Because before the Flood it was nothing out of the ordinary for people to be reproducing at well over a hundred, that’s why “postdiluvian” Never happened. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/66 "2009-03-04T18:32:59Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Here’s the lolcat translation of the verse in question. > > Really this isn’t to hard to fanwank. The Lord was “with them” in that he was providing moral support and whatnot. He wasn’t firing supernatural artillery or anything. Rather just supernatural cheerleading as he continues the slow fade into abstraction that characterizes the OT. > > “Yeah, we lost. And y’know what? You watched us. You coulda turned the chariots into steam or the iron into snowflakes. You coulda teleported them to Mt. Ararat. But you didn’t lift a finger. You’re driftin’ outa touch Yahweh. God help us all.” Sorta like a Bay Of Pigs vibe, eh? Even today, if I were asked to produce a favorite Bible verse, I’d go with “Jesus wept.” It’s the shortest verse, and for an explanation, “Jesus had a lot to weep about. He got a raw deal.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/67 "2009-03-04T18:41:34Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Well, you can sneer, of course. I apologize for sneering. My main issue was with the idea that the lack of faith of his worshippers explains God’s failure, which frankly seems silly. [QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] Just be thankful she’s not a gay boy in her situation - no offence but your family sounds like the kind of people who’d go for electro-shock therapy first and wonder if it’s the right thing for their child later. [/QUOTE] No, they’d go in for, in the following order, physical punishment, private exorcisms, public exorcisms, and reparative therapy. No, I am not kidding. I tell you the examples I am thinking of, but it would only make you sad. Think of _Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit_. Incidentally, what kind of a universe is it that we live in that **Charlotte Coleman** dies at 33 and **Fred Phelps** is walking around alive and being an ass? That alone argues that there is no God. Moving along… I have a mostly hypothetical question–really a poll, but it’s on this topic and I dont feel like opening a new thread. Do any of you guys have ethical problems with someone in Jess’ situation flat-out lying to her parents to get along? I’m not advising her to do that (because it would be interfering with their parenting if I were to do so, and if I were discovered in it, they’d keep her from me and she would no longer have a refuge), but that is what I think she should do. They’re not gonna change; “The new philosophy calls all in doubt” and all that. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/68 "2009-03-04T18:47:23Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Still, perhaps you ought to look at the Israelites’ history from Exodus onwards of flinching, trembling, prevaricating and vacillating, and consider where that might plausibly have something to do with the events in Judges 1:19, and so might your niece. That’d be more convincing if God hadn’t been helping the Israelites as recently as the first half of the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/69 "2009-03-04T19:05:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have a mostly hypothetical question–really a poll, but it’s on this topic and I dont feel like opening a new thread. Do any of you guys have ethical problems with someone in Jess’ situation flat-out lying to her parents to get along? It may be more practical to just keep her opinions mostly to herself (or at least hide them from her parents), but I’ve got no ethical problems with anyone lying about their beliefs if they’re in this kind of situation. I’m assuming she’ll be moving out of the house within a few years. I’m doubtful I’d be able to keep quiet for much longer. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/70 "2009-03-04T20:02:10Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have a mostly hypothetical question–really a poll, but it’s on this topic and I dont feel like opening a new thread. **Do any of you guys have ethical problems with someone in Jess’ situation flat-out lying to her parents to get along?** I’m not advising her to do that (because it would be interfering with their parenting if I were to do so, and if I were discovered in it, they’d keep her from me and she would no longer have a refuge), but that is what I think she should do. They’re not gonna change; “The new philosophy calls all in doubt” and all that. > > Thoughts? Absolutely not - being morally right is small comfort when your life is being made a living hell by the people you depend on for food and shelter. My advice? Tell her to say that in her grounded time she’s rethought this situation and realised she was wrong, and in fact did feel _something_ upon her when she chose that line which indicates it probably was Satan trying to deceive her. She’s realised God is great, Jesus is da man and that she’s going to be spending a lot of time at her friends’ houses convincing them to see the light as she has. When she is old enough to stand on her own two feet she can tell them exactly where to shove their Bible, if indeed she wants to, but doing it now is not helping her. Atheism is not congruent with martyrdom. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/71 "2009-03-04T20:30:24Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Absolutely not - being morally right is small comfort when your life is being made a living hell by the people you depend on for food and shelter. My advice? Tell her to say that in her grounded time she’s rethought this situation and realised she was wrong, and in fact did feel _something_ upon her when she chose that line which indicates it probably was Satan trying to deceive her. She’s realised God is great, Jesus is da man and that she’s going to be spending a lot of time at her friends’ houses convincing them to see the light as she has. When she is old enough to stand on her own two feet she can tell them exactly where to shove their Bible, if indeed she wants to, but doing it now is not helping her. > > Atheism is not congruent with martyrdom. While that’s what I think she should do, I’m not giving her advice like that, basically because it crosses the line from “supporting her” to “interfering with their parenting.” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/72 "2009-03-04T20:31:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’d be more convincing if God hadn’t been helping the Israelites as recently as the first half of the sentence. I believe that is the best comeback I’ve come across since Hector was a pup. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/73 "2009-03-04T20:39:40Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I have a mostly hypothetical question–really a poll, but it’s on this topic and I dont feel like opening a new thread. Do any of you guys have ethical problems with someone in Jess’ situation flat-out lying to her parents to get along? I’m not advising her to do that (because it would be interfering with their parenting if I were to do so, and if I were discovered in it, they’d keep her from me and she would no longer have a refuge), but that is what I think she should do. They’re not gonna change; “The new philosophy calls all in doubt” and all that. > > Thoughts? Assuming her parents aren’t the sort to literally wrestle and hold her down for beatings, I actually think she should simply refuse to stay grounded. Her parents are acting clearly and egregiously unjustly, and IMO the kid has no obligation to obey her in this matter. A little peaceful civil disobedience may be in order here. Force the parents to confront themselves in their confrontations with her. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/74 "2009-03-04T20:49:07Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Assuming her parents aren’t the sort to literally wrestle and hold her down for beatings, I actually think she should simply refuse to stay grounded. Her parents are acting clearly and egregiously unjustly, and IMO the kid has no obligation to obey her in this matter. > > A little peaceful civil disobedience may be in order here. Force the parents to confront themselves in their confrontations with her. Clearly you’re not a black southerner raised in a Pentecostalist church that teaches that sparing the rod leads to spoiling the child and that persons not saved by the blood of the Lamb are condemned to an eternity spent in a physical hell, where they will be burned forever without being consumed while simutaneously being eaten by worms. Otehrwise you would know that, yes, a 14-year-old girl in such a situation may well get spanked for what you’re suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/75 "2009-03-04T21:01:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Clearly you’re not a black southerner raised in a Pentecostalist church that teaches that sparing the rod leads to spoiling the child and that persons not saved by the blood of the Lamb are condemned to an eternity spent in a physical hell, where they will be burned forever without being consumed while simutaneously being eaten by worms. Otehrwise you would know that, yes, a 14-year-old girl in such a situation may well get spanked for what you’re suggesting. Of course I know her parents spank, you’ve said so a few times in this thread. That’s why I said “assuming her parents _aren’t the type to wrestle and hold her down for beatings_.” In other words, I was implying that if they _would_ physically force her to be spanked or otherwise beaten, then my recommendation doesn’t apply. My parents spanked me, but they never forced me or held me down. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/76 "2009-03-04T21:13:28Z")
Okay **Skald** - I wish you luck with this thread but I’m bowing out. You’re asking for advice and then routinely rejecting it as not fitting the situation. Not sure what you want to be honest so just to say best of luck to you and your niece. ---
**Author:** ![hobscrk777](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a6a055/32.png) [@hobscrk777](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hobscrk777)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/77 "2009-03-04T21:19:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Clearly you’re not a black southerner raised in a Pentecostalist church that teaches that sparing the rod leads to spoiling the child and that persons not saved by the blood of the Lamb are condemned to an eternity spent in a physical hell, where they will be burned forever without being consumed while simutaneously being eaten by worms. Otehrwise you would know that, yes, a 14-year-old girl in such a situation may well get spanked for what you’re suggesting. I haven’t chimed in until now because I’ve been content to read the conversation, but I cant sit on the sidelines any longer. These people _ **spank** _ a 14-year old girl?!? ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/78 "2009-03-04T21:40:02Z")
After following this thread, this actually surprises you? Unfortunately the smart thing to do here is to stay quite. Parents like that thrive on intimidation and apparently, physical abuse. That’s no way to live. I say she should keep her head down and stick to her studies. Go to college and become a world famous scientists who discovers the cure for Cancer. Then, every time she gets interviewed on CNN or Regis, she can dish out her story of religious abuse at the hands of her parents. Now that’s sweet, sweet vengeance. Ok, joking, but only slightly. She has to keep her head down until she cna fend for herself and then tell them, unequivocally, where they can shove their bible (and I’m nto tlaking about a pocket edition. I’m talking a medieval version with illuminations and pages made out of parchment). ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/79 "2009-03-04T22:07:46Z")
What does Jess think she might want to be when she grows up? Any area of study that she is particularly good at? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041/80 "2009-03-04T22:34:59Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Okay **Skald** - I wish you luck with this thread but I’m bowing out. You’re asking for advice and then routinely rejecting it as not fitting the situation. Not sure what you want to be honest so just to say best of luck to you and your niece. **Illuminatiprimus** , I probably wasn’t clear above. My question about whether a person in my cousin’s situation was entirely hypothetical, because, while I think she probably should, I also think it’s inapprpriate for me to advise her to do so. I was wondering whether others thought lying was unethical in such a situation but didn’t want to open another thread. [QUOTE=hobscrk777] I haven’t chimed in until now because I’ve been content to read the conversation, but I cant sit on the sidelines any longer. These people spank a 14-year old girl?!? [/QUOTE] It wouldn’t surprise me. I don’t know that they would wrestle her down, but I’m certainly not going to broach the subject. I don’t now that they would wrestle her down and find it hard to imagine. But I was still eligble for a spanking at that age, and I know my lesbian cousin got spanked when she was–oh, possibly 16–for daring to kiss another girl. So this is why I think Jess would be foolish to try to break the grounding as someone suggested upthread; she’d be daring her parents to spank her. [QUOTE=Shirley Ujest] What does Jess think she might want to be when she grows up? Any area of study that she is particularly good at? [/QUOTE] In the last year or so she’s gone from doctor to lawyer to cop to whatever it is the people on CSI do. I don’t know what subjects she’s good in. [QUOTE=Kinthalis] Unfortunately the smart thing to do here is to stay quite. Parents like that thrive on intimidation and apparently, physical abuse. That’s no way to live. [/QUOTE] I don’t know that her parents would take it to that level. I just know that my parents and her mother’s parents and our shared grandparents didn’t think twice about bringing out the belt, and even if I were willing to interfere with their parenting by advising her to lie, I wouldn’t be willing to tell her to risk it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-act-of-agnostic-teenage-rebellion-was-not-my-idea/488041.md?page=5)