# This doesn't look like self defense to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201 "2024-06-22T15:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/1 "2024-06-22T15:22:38Z")
So this guy has become a bit of local Twitter celebrity in the DC area for defending himself against a burglar with a frying pan: > The thing is, that doesn’t look like self defense to me. Once the guy has left his house and is clearly trying to escape without the threatening the house owner, that seems like plain old assault with a deadly weapon to me. But IANAL. I know some places (like Texas) have laws that basically say “see a burglar? Blast away, no questions asked”, but DC doesn’t AFAIK? What do the assembled legal dopers say? Not saying I’m not sympathetic with the homeowner and I’ve not heard any suggestion that he’s in legal jeopardy, but legally I don’t see why. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/2 "2024-06-22T15:33:44Z")
As long as the guy was still on the property the owner could use force to remove him. The only actual force I saw was the owner hitting the guy on the hand as he was opening the gate to run away. I assume the guy had broken and entered the house so he was a burglar and not just a trespasser. State laws vary on the subject of how an owner can deal with a burglar once he is outside the building but it’s unlikely he faces any legal problems in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/3 "2024-06-22T15:43:18Z")
State laws vary when the burglar is still on the property, too. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/4 "2024-06-22T15:56:13Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > As long as the guy was still on the property the owner could use force to remove him. The only actual force I saw was the owner hitting the guy on the hand as he was opening the gate to run away. Yeah so that doesn’t seem like using force to remove him, even at a stretch. Actually hitting his hand as he’s trying to open the gate to leave the property, just seems like the exact opposite of that: using force to prevent him leaving. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/5 "2024-06-22T16:06:57Z")
Note what @puzzlegal said, he’s not just a trespasser, he’s a burglar and even though no longer in the house the owner had a reasonable fear of harm from him. So chasing him with a frying pan may be reasonable under the circumstances and in the heat of the moment he’s not going to analyze the situation to that degree. State laws will determine exactly how much force he could actually use and under what circumstances. I doubt he would be charged with a crime in any state no matter how the law is stretched to favor a burglar. Now if he wasn’t actually a burglar, then it’s a whole different matter. Hitting a simple trespasser attempting to leave the property would be frowned on. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/6 "2024-06-22T16:15:29Z")
Edit, weird I watched that video and it was just the porch, no people. Then tried again and now I see people. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/7 "2024-06-22T16:16:11Z")
I’m hanging a frying pan by every door, now! Yay! A use for those stupid copper pans I ordered on a whim. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/8 "2024-06-22T16:18:51Z")
What kind of a watch dog is that? 45 seconds in, after the burglar gets chased to the back and then to the front: “Oh, shucks, I better get barking!” ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/9 "2024-06-22T16:28:34Z")
IMHO answer: I’m okay with it, providing it was home invasion or attempted breaking and entering. A person who would unlawfully enter an occupied house is crazy dangerous. Chasing them off with a frying pan is damn risky, and maintaining the attack till they’re (almost ) helpless or running down the street is excusable (or very good). I’d draw the line if the pan wielder staggered them to the ground and then kept adding head blows. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/10 "2024-06-22T16:57:27Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > even though no longer in the house the owner had a reasonable fear of harm from him I really don’t see this at all, the guy has left his house is clearly desperately attempting to leave his property as fast as he can. There is no way you can claim a reasonable fear of harm here. I understand for practical reasons an elected DA is very unlikely to take the very unpopular decision to prosecute here (especially in DC where they are receiving all sorts criticism about levels of crime) But if they did I don’t see any legal reason this wouldn’t be an open shut case of assault with a deadly weapon. Unless DC has a law that explicitly says you’re allowed to use deadly force to stop burglars escaping your property. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/11 "2024-06-22T17:06:02Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Edit, weird I watched that video and it was just the porch, no people. Then tried again and now I see people I saw a church and a steeple, but no people. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/12 "2024-06-22T17:14:20Z")
I doubt it is any kind of watchdog. It knows when it is safe to come to the aid of it’s owner. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/13 "2024-06-22T17:21:23Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I’m hanging a frying pan by every door, now! [Flynn Rider] I have got to get me one of these! [/Flynn Rider] ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/14 "2024-06-22T17:43:43Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I really don’t see this at all, the guy has left his house is clearly desperately attempting to leave his property as fast as he can. There is no way you can claim a reasonable fear of harm here. WTF? This seems like a ridiculous standard. The burglar showed his willingness to enter an occupied house, and is still on the homeowner’s property. He could turn around and attack at any time, or go back into the house. I don’t think the homeowner could shoot at the fleeing burglar, and stabbing him with a knife or a pickaxe or similar weapon would also be too far. But brandishing a gun until he leaves the property would be totally appropriate, and I don’t think a few whacks from a frying pan rise to the same level as those other weapons I mentioned. > [@griffin1977](#): > > But if they did I don’t see any legal reason this wouldn’t be an open shut case of assault with a deadly weapon 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/15 "2024-06-22T17:43:45Z")
Oh yeah I’d chase his ass down too, swinging my pan at his head I see no reason to be polite and let him off the hook for real he’s lucky to have made it out the gate. I don’t know his violent tendencies if I was placidly standing by he could do me harm as I already know he’s a criminal risk taker. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/16 "2024-06-22T17:46:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > > [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > > > Edit, weird I watched that video and it was just the porch, no people. Then tried again and now I see people > > I saw a church and a steeple, but no people. Dammit that’s exactly where my brain went too. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/17 "2024-06-22T18:13:43Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > even though no longer in the house the owner had a reasonable fear of harm from him > > I really don’t see this at all, the guy has left his house is clearly desperately attempting to leave his property as fast as he can. There is no way you can claim a reasonable fear of harm here. > > I understand for practical reasons an elected DA is very unlikely to take the very unpopular decision to prosecute here (especially in DC where they are receiving all sorts criticism about levels of crime) > > But if they did I don’t see any legal reason this wouldn’t be an open shut case of assault with a deadly weapon. Unless DC has a law that explicitly says you’re allowed to use deadly force to stop burglars escaping your property. It is one continuous act. There is no home base for the home invader to reach. If he steps outside he’s not safe. I could see your point if the homeowner saw him for the first time when he was leaving the property but not under these circumstances. It’s reasonable for the victim to chase the suspect off of the property. It also does not appear to be deadly force. Hitting someone in the hand with an object is not deadly force. If he was using deadly force illegally it would be attempted murder. Do you think that was attempted murder? I also hate the term “deadly weapon.” I know some states use it as a relic from common law. It seems like DC uses the term “dangerous weapon” instead. I couldn’t find how they define that term under the law. A frying pan isn’t a deadly weapon or even a weapon. It’s a frying pan. It can be _used_ as a weapon as can just about anything. In my state there is a law against possessing a weapon for unlawful purposes. That covers anything if you are using it improperly as a weapon. Also use of a weapon in an assault bumps it up to aggravated assault. No need to determine if something is “deadly.” ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/18 "2024-06-22T18:38:53Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I saw a church and a steeple, but no people. I saw a Chinese person putting peepee in my coke. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/19 "2024-06-22T18:45:12Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > > [@griffin1977](#): > > > > I really don’t see this at all, the guy has left his house is clearly desperately attempting to leave his property as fast as he can. There is no way you can claim a reasonable fear of harm here. > > WTF? This seems like a ridiculous standard. The burglar showed his willingness to enter an occupied house, and is still on the homeowner’s property. He could turn around and attack at any time, or go back into the house. Yup. Just this. If you find run across a burglar in your house you have no idea what he is there for. He might be there to steal stuff, he might be there to harm you or your family. Because burglary is a serious crime he might harm you, even kill you to prevent his arrest. You can reasonably consider him dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/20 "2024-06-22T18:54:07Z")
This happened in Chicago. Why is he a local celebrity in the DC area? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201.md?page=2)