# This doesn't look like self defense to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201 "2024-06-22T15:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/41 "2024-06-22T20:56:03Z")
This seems to be the relevant law [https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-720-criminal-offenses/il-st-sect-720-5-7-2/#:~:text=Use%20of%20force%20in%20defense%20of%20dwelling&text=§%207-2.,force%20in%20defense%20of%20dwelling.&text=(2)%20He%20reasonably%20believes%20that,a%20felony%20in%20the%20dwelling](https://codes.findlaw.com/il/chapter-720-criminal-offenses/il-st-sect-720-5-7-2/#:~:text=Use%20of%20force%20in%20defense%20of%20dwelling&text=%C2%A7%207%2D2.,force%20in%20defense%20of%20dwelling.&text=(2)%20He%20reasonably%20believes%20that,a%20felony%20in%20the%20dwelling). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/42 "2024-06-22T21:03:33Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Woosh, perhaps, but Judges as in the book from the Bible. You basically described the story of Yael, who kills Sisera in the fashion you describe. (I guess a tent peg is more of a sharp object than a heavy one?) I was whooshed indeed. I didn’t recognize the reference. But the story I read may have been inspired by the biblical story. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/43 "2024-06-22T21:24:40Z")
> [@chela](#): > > Where does reasonable action assert itself after your home has been invaded? The obvious answer would be when your home is no longer being invaded, absent any other indication they are an imminent thread to your life But I’d actually be interested in what the law actually says. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/44 "2024-06-22T21:30:29Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This seems to be the relevant law That seems to indicate this would not be considered self defence under that law: > He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling As he was no longer “in the dwelling”. In fact my reading of that is if he was still in the house but was obviously trying to get out as quickly as possible (as this guy was, presumably) it still wouldn’t be ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/45 "2024-06-22T21:55:58Z")
Whatever would happen, if it occurred to me at the time I would grab something and chase a criminal person, consequences would just have to come. I’ll deal with it the best I could. Where it’s gets iffy is if wife wants stepson out or drunk husband wants to chase his wife around(etc. etc. you know kinfolk) A stranger in your home uninvited is asking for it. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/46 "2024-06-22T22:02:28Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > What kind of a watch dog is that? 45 seconds in, after the burglar gets chased to the back and then to the front: “Oh, shucks, I better get barking!” That’s exactly what I took from that video! My doxies would have been on that guy like he was a pork chop. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/47 "2024-06-22T22:03:25Z")
Pound for pound, doxies are the best guard dogs. Couple of doxies around that corner and the guy would have been yelling “I don’t care if you hit me with the fry pan! Just let me out!” ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/48 "2024-06-22T22:10:49Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Pound for pound, doxies are the best guard dogs Certainly the noisiest! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/49 "2024-06-22T22:30:28Z")
A weapon is anything which is intended to be used to harm someone. Ordinarily, a frying pan is not a weapon, because that’s not the ordinary purpose of a frying pan. In this case, however, the homeowner did intend to use the pan to harm someone, and so in this case it was a weapon. Was it a deadly weapon? That sounds like a matter for legal definition, to me. How does the law define a “deadly” weapon? And even if it ceased being a pure self-defense case once the burglar was out of the house, the law does make allowances for the heat of the moment, sometimes in the letter of the law and often in things like prosecutorial discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2024, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/50 "2024-06-22T23:14:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Was it a deadly weapon? That sounds like a matter for legal definition, to me. How does the law define a “deadly” weapon? There’s a Florida Man story for everything: > **[Florida Man Arrested for Allegedly Tossing Alligator Into Wendy's Drive-Thru...](https://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-man-arrested-allegedly-tossing-alligator-wendys-drive/story?id=36815270)** > > The man faces multiple charges, including assault with a deadly weapon. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/51 "2024-06-23T00:10:42Z")
Let’s not forget that beyond how the law _might_ be interpreted in this case, there’s also whether it’s likely to be something a DA will take up. Let’s say the burglar’s hand was smashed, and he say “Homeowner assaulted me, charge him!” I would be astonished if the DA didn’t say “No chance”, because I can’t imagine a jury convicting. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/52 "2024-06-23T00:22:05Z")
A co-worker once told us about discovering a man into his home one night after a break-in, and being successful driving him out by threatening him with a golf club.\* No one was injured in the encounter. It would’ve been interesting to see if the homeowner could’ve avoided charges for striking the burglar if he had first yelled “Fore!”.\* \*a short iron would be favored in such an encounter, perhaps a pitching wedge. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/53 "2024-06-23T00:35:01Z")
> [@phs3](#): > > I would be astonished if the DA didn’t say “No chance”, because I can’t imagine a jury convicting While I totally agree the DA is unlikely to press charges here, I wouldn’t say that has anything to do with not getting a conviction. It looks pretty cut and dried to me, I think most juries would be able to put aside their emotions and convict. Plus it would likely involve a plea deal not a jury trial. They won’t press charges as this guy is being lauded as a hero, so it would be politically unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/54 "2024-06-23T00:43:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Was it a deadly weapon? That sounds like a matter for legal definition, to me. How does the law define a “deadly” weapon? So the law quoted above uses the term “the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm”. I’d say hitting someone with a frying pan counts as that, but even if not the bar for just using regular force is still “when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling”. I can’t see how hitting someone who’s trying to leave your property counts as “prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling”. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/55 "2024-06-23T01:08:39Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Was it a deadly weapon? That sounds like a matter for legal definition, to me. How does the law define a “deadly” weapon? > > So the law quoted above uses the term “the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm”. I’d say hitting someone with a frying pan counts as that, but even if not the bar for just using regular force is still “when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling”. I can’t see how hitting someone who’s trying to leave your property counts as “prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling”. Well you are wrong. Hitting someone or attempting to hit someone over the head with a frying pan could be seen as deadly force. Hitting someone in the hand can not. It’s like the drawing of the body with green, yellow and red areas that’s used in ASP training. The red areas were only for situations where deadly force is justified. Hands and arms are not considered deadly force. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/56 "2024-06-23T01:08:50Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yup. Just this. If you find run across a burglar in your house you have no idea what he is there for. He might be there to steal stuff, he might be there to harm you or your family. Because burglary is a serious crime he might harm you, even kill you to prevent his arrest. You can reasonably consider him dangerous. He (the burglar) might NOT be alone (the house-owner could NOT be 100% certain that he was alone)… so it makes sense to neutralize (=/= kill) this threat and go back in an check if there are other perps e.g. in the baby’s room … at least that would be my line of defense 😉 “case closed!!!” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/57 "2024-06-23T01:10:22Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > He (the burglar) might NOT be alone (the house-owner could NOT be 100% certain that he was alone)… so it makes sense to neutralize (=/= kill) this threat and go back in an check if there are other perps e.g. in the baby’s room … > > at least that would be my line of defense So, out with the frying pan, then in to the foyer? ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/58 "2024-06-23T01:12:27Z")
nah … back to the kitchen … them pancakes don’t cook themselves ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/59 "2024-06-23T01:22:50Z")
The main objection feels like it’s supposed to be a game of tag and the suspect is safe at home as soon as he gets outside. The law isn’t that clear cut. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2024, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/60 "2024-06-23T01:26:00Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Hitting someone in the hand can not. It’s like the drawing of the body with green, yellow and red areas that’s used in ASP training Wait, so _shooting_ someone in the hand or arm wouldn’t be considered “force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm”?!? That seems like some Hollywood action movie logic to me (where shots to the torso or head are instantly fatal and everything else a slight momentary impediment) rather than anything based on actual gunshot wounds. Either way, even if its not it doesn’t seem like this would even reach the bar of using regular non-lethal force in self defense [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201.md?page=4)