# This doesn't look like self defense to me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 22, 2024, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201 "2024-06-22T15:22:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/141 "2024-06-25T12:15:24Z")
Imaging myself as the frying pan yielding home owner, not claiming trying to detain for the police (citizens arrest); “I was chasing him away and didn’t want to seriously hurt him or prevent his being able to leave. If I wanted to seriously hurt him _I would have hit him on the head_. A leg might stop him from leaving and the trunk might not hurt enough to encourage his continued departure. That’s at least what I was thinking in the split moment.” As a juror my image is a little old lady chasing out a bad guy by swinging a broom. The story seems extremely reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/142 "2024-06-25T12:19:42Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Again as the law says absolutely nothing about being able to beat someone with a frying pan to encourage them to leave your property, your gonna have to show an Illinois law that says that or a case where the judge interpreted it that way Nope. You are making the outrageous claims. You show a case in Illinois where a homeowner was charged with a crime for hitting a burglar on the hand with a frying pan as they were leaving their property. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/143 "2024-06-25T12:20:18Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Again as the law says absolutely nothing about being able to beat someone with a frying pan to encourage them to leave your property, > [@(720 ILCS 5/7-2)\` \`(from Ch. 38](#): > > A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. and > [@](#): > > (720 ILCS 5/7-3)` `(from Ch. 38, par. 7-3) > Sec. 7-3. ` `Use of force in defense of other property. > (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) ` The person using force needs to “reasonably” believe that the force is necessary to end the burglary/trespass, but that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/144 "2024-06-25T12:21:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The story seems extremely reasonable to me. Indeed. Heck, when someone shoots and kills an intruder who was taking their tv, people lament about killing someone’s over a tv. I think about what a pain in the ass it was the last time I purchased a tv, brought it home, unboxed, installed. Yeah, maybe killing a guy over a tv isn’t that bad. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/145 "2024-06-25T14:55:22Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Heck, when someone shoots and kills an intruder who was taking their tv, people lament about killing someone’s over a tv. In the end, though, it is not about the TV but about that stranger thinking it is ok to be in my space. My personal safe space is being callously molested. How hard is that to understand? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/146 "2024-06-25T14:59:44Z")
One thing’s for sure: That dog should have been docked a day’s pay. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/147 "2024-06-25T17:32:00Z")
Oh it is easy to understand the desire to retaliate and to exact revenge. It is however a crime to do so. That also should not be hard to understand. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/148 "2024-06-25T18:21:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Again though, in this case the homeowner hit on the hand that was opening a gate to leave, very consistent with an intent to detain until police could arrive with reasonable and not dangerous force, which is consistent with allowable action as a citizen’s arrest. To your initial point, I think a jury wouldn’t necessarily have to ignore the law. They decide whether the homeowner had reasonable fear for their safety, and whether it was a reasonable use of force. To the point quoted above, I agree that it could be a reasonable attempt to detain, but also, I don’t get why everyone sees this hit to the hand as a deliberate attempt to stop the person from leaving. It’s possible that it was, but it’s also possible, and totally reasonable during a panicked attempt to drive an intruder, whose intent you don’t know, away from your home and loved ones, that the strike was to the intruder’s_outstretching hand_, without any deliberation about what the hand is reaching for, and what the implications of the burglar reaching for the gate are, vis-a-vis his intention to leave the property. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > I always wonder what the motivation is of the people that apply so much scrutiny to self defense cases. It seems people are often hyper vigilant to any potential excess that anyone defending themselves makes in good faith in the heat of the moment in order to be lenient towards someone who violated the space and therefore threatened the life of the other person. I don’t understand the impulse at all. I agree with your entire post. I think part of it is trying to guard against vigilantism, but the fineness of the distinctions is extreme. I mean, everyone agrees, I think, that the guy is 100% justified in chasing the burglar out of his house. Then the parsing starts. Can he continue on to chase him out of the fenced yard? Then: He hit him on the hand to stop him from leaving! > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Sure, some of it is ignorance of how scary it can be to be attacked in this way, and how much one can be caught up in the adrenaline of the moment and not to act perfectly, but there must be something more to it than that when people seem to care more about the criminal than the innocent. I think some of it is that ignorance. Like every move in a fight is the product of careful consideration, deliberate aim, and perfect execution. The burglar was hit on the hand while his hand was on the gate = reasoned, intentional, perfectly executed strike to prevent burglar from leaving. > [@griffin1977](#): > > The best I got is an actual Illinois law that describes when resident can use force (either regular or lethal force) in defense of their dwelling and, even if a frying pan counts as regular ol’ force, the events in the OP absolutely 100% do not count as a justified use of force under that law. Wow. That’s a lot of certainty. Guess what though. The defense of dwelling law stops when you are no longer defending your dwelling, but that doesn’t mean there’s no more defense. You can still use force to drive off a trespasser. § 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property. > (a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other’s trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/149 "2024-06-25T19:07:47Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Claiming self-defense is essentially the standard defense for killing someone if it’s obvious you killed them. > > IMO vigilantism and lynching should be extremely discouraged, which I think justifies extra scrutiny when someone ends up dead. No one is dead here. This discussion is not about lethal force at all. Pretty much the entire discussion is about hitting a burglar on the hand with a frying pan. > [@griffin1977](#): > > If however they want they want their actions to be treated as self defense by the state of Illinois they need to restrict their actions to “preventing or terminating an attack on their dwelling”. Someone quoted one law that was applicable. Lots of people have argued that self defense is not that limited. You built an entire argument on a presumption that another person’s posting of a single relevant law constituted the sum total of all of the relevant laws. Did you try to search for additional self defense laws for Illinois? Because to make the claim that self defense in Illinois is limited to “preventing or terminating an attack on their dwelling” you would need to have some grasp of what is and is not contained in Illinois self defense law. You do not. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Which is not remotely related to the OP in the slightest. > > Could you show me the bit of Illinois law that sets that as a standard for a claim self defense? One of the ways to view self defense law and it’s standard of having a reasonable belief is that it is a way of implementing a policy choice that the risks fall on the criminal or presumed criminal, rather than on the person who is the victim or who reasonably believes they are the victim. This is why a use of force can be justified if reasonable, even if the reasonable belief turns out to be a mistaken one. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/150 "2024-06-25T20:51:55Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > This is why a use of force can be justified if reasonable, even if the reasonable belief turns out to be a mistaken one. Right. It’s not the reasonable belief of someone viewing the video, looking up the appropriate statute on their computer, wondering about it, discussing it online and coming to a conclusion. It’s the reasonable belief of someone suddenly confronted by an intruder in his own home and what is reasonable in the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/151 "2024-06-25T21:35:22Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I always wonder what the motivation is of the people that apply so much scrutiny to self defense cases. It seems people are often hyper vigilant to any potential excess that anyone defending themselves makes in good faith in the heat of the moment in order to be lenient towards someone who violated the space and therefore threatened the life of the other person. I’ve noticed the same thing in other threads about self defense. My working theory is that a lot of people are comfortable with the idea of self defense in the abstract, but they’re not so comfortable seeing how the sausage is made. Violence is ugly and unpleasant, so most of us avoid it where possible. I have seen threads on this board where I thought many members were unreasonable in how they viewed self-defense, but I do think the OP asks a reasonable question in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/152 "2024-06-26T00:15:46Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I do think the OP asks a reasonable question in this case I agree. But the OP does seem to have difficulty accepting reasonable answers, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/153 "2024-06-26T11:51:46Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Gots 'em. > > I wanna know, did the video dude just grab the skillet he was cooking in or a cold one? Clearly he grabbed a skillet not a beer ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/154 "2024-06-26T12:31:58Z")
He was on his way home when the alarm went off, so presumably the frying pan was cold. He fried some fish after chasing the burglary. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/155 "2024-06-26T12:37:13Z")
> [@Mikkel](#): > > He fried some fish after chasing the burglary. Until then, he had bigger fish to fry. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2024, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/156 "2024-06-26T14:34:29Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > No one is dead here. This discussion is not about lethal force at all. I was replying to the question of why self-defense cases are closely scrutinized in general, not necessarily this specific case. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/157 "2024-06-27T22:18:21Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > the question of why self-defense cases are closely scrutinized except in Florida ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/158 "2024-06-28T19:44:17Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I was replying to the question of why self-defense cases are closely scrutinized in general, not necessarily this specific case But lethal uses of force are a fraction of all self-defense cases, and the laws pertaining to the use of lethal force are different from the more general self defense laws. So I still don’t really see the relevance in a discussion about a very minor use of force. I get that you are saying that’s why people closely scrutinize it, and that you are not saying they are the same thing. It’s just odd if that really is why some people scrutinize it this way. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201/159 "2024-07-08T19:46:07Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I saw a church and a steeple, but no people. You forgot to open the doors! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-doesnt-look-like-self-defense-to-me/1003201.md?page=7)