# This fucking board is pushing me towards voting Republican **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 5, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554 "2011-03-05T02:23:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/81 "2011-03-05T05:15:21Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no no, it’s not merely “decid[ing] not to show up”. it’s “escaping the jurisdiction which he was democratically chosen to represent” As i suggested previously, you are welcome to your belief in this argument. As a matter of principle regarding the proper operation of democracy, however, i still see a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/82 "2011-03-05T05:21:44Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > thank you, Straight Dope. thank you. > > yes, I’m sure I’ll be greeted by a spate of “don’t let the door hit you on the way out” posts. I knew this when I started the thread. > But, for reals. Some of you are just really fucking retarded in your absolute blind, biased devotion to everything Democrat. I think the thread on the justness and propriety of dodging a quorum as a valid exercise of political power just tipped the scale for me. You fucking idiots would be FOAMING at the mouth if this was being done by Republicans. Screaming about how they were usurping the will of the people. > > There’s other shit, too, but I frankly don’t care to go and point out threads where I truly wished that avowed “liberals” were disenfranchised. > > I can only take comfort in the fact that Republicans don’t have any crosshairs targeted on my specific Gender/SES/ethnicity. I guess I’ll have to deal with the abject incorporation of religiosity into civic life, though. > > Thanks a fucking lot. Read the threads about Wisconsin and the teachers. you will find all the right wing anti union pro Walker people that you can stand. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/83 "2011-03-05T05:27:09Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I predict this would be self-defeating for the left. > > I mean, if you can’t be endlessly telling us all how to act, how to think, what words we can use, what’s wrong with us, what our attitudes should be and what our consciences ought be telling us, what else have you got? Functional IQs. I know you don’t need me telling you this, but you really are a moron. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/84 "2011-03-05T05:27:16Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > As i suggested previously, you are welcome to your belief in this argument. > > As a matter of principle regarding the proper operation of democracy, however, i still see a distinction without a difference. It seems to me that being subject to arrest is a significant distinction. ---
**Author:** ![gravitycrash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@gravitycrash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gravitycrash)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/85 "2011-03-05T05:36:15Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I don’t know the poll numbers in Wisconsin, but in Ohio it’s about 60-40 against our version of the bill. But yet, the bill passed. If the numbers in Wisconsin are similar, the Republican legislators are actually going _against_ the wishes of the majority of their constituents. Great then in less than 2 years they can be voted out of office just like the Dems who voted for the health care bill got thrown out of office despite what their constituents wanted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/86 "2011-03-05T05:36:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I predict this would be self-defeating for the left. > > I mean, if you can’t be endlessly telling us all how to act, how to think, what words we can use, what’s wrong with us, what our attitudes should be and what our consciences ought be telling us, what else have you got? Our lives would be empty. Except for the sex, drugs, and rock n roll. Other than that, though, bleak and dark. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/87 "2011-03-05T05:41:09Z")
Yeah, but you’d be doing all that in a political vacuum. Works for me. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/88 "2011-03-05T05:42:59Z")
fap, fap, fap… ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/89 "2011-03-05T05:46:48Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It seems to me that being subject to arrest is a significant distinction. If you’re not following the actual argument that i’m making then it would be. The argument i’m making is an argument of principle, an argument about what i believe to be the appropriate course of action for lawmakers in a representative democracy. For me, as a matter of principle, leaving the jurisdiction is no more and no less disruptive of the democratic process and its ideals than standing there and delivering a 24-hour speech on cabbage patch dolls. Both are designed specifically to prevent the forward movement of the legislative process, and both succeed in doing exactly that. While it is true that one of these actions (failing to appear) makes the person subject to arrest and the other (filibustering) does not, this does not, for me, have a bearing on whether either of those actions are subversive of representative democracy. It’s just like, for me, the fact that you can be arrested for smoking marijuana does not make the act of smoking marijuana immoral or any different, in principle, from smoking a tobacco cigarette. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/90 "2011-03-05T06:11:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … there was a point in the eighties when forty GOP senators left to deny the Dems a quorum and Senate President Pro Tem Robert Byrd ordered the Senate Sergeant at Arms to arrest 'em. Though in BBQ Pit, I hope it isn’t out of order for me to address my own ignorance by asking a question: What is the legal basis for arresting an absent legislator? Any difference State vs Fed? (I’ve no opinion on whether it’s right or wrong; I’m just curious.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/91 "2011-03-05T06:13:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If you’re not following the actual argument that i’m making then it would be. > > The argument i’m making is an argument of principle, an argument about what i believe to be the appropriate course of action for lawmakers in a representative democracy. For me, as a matter of principle, leaving the jurisdiction is no more and no less disruptive of the democratic process and its ideals than standing there and delivering a 24-hour speech on cabbage patch dolls. Both are designed specifically to prevent the forward movement of the legislative process, and both succeed in doing exactly that. > > While it is true that one of these actions (failing to appear) makes the person subject to arrest and the other (filibustering) does not, this does not, for me, have a bearing on whether either of those actions are subversive of representative democracy. It’s just like, for me, the fact that you can be arrested for smoking marijuana does not make the act of smoking marijuana immoral or any different, in principle, from smoking a tobacco cigarette. Yes, I was following it. But there are many things that can prevent the forward movement of the legislative process. The use of firearms for example. A person could block legislative action by using a gun to threaten suicide or to hold the group hostage. People have to abide by the law, and this is especially true of lawmakers. In my opinion, if members of a legislature are acting outside the boundries of the law, they are no longer playing a legitimate role in democratic governance. In other words, it isn’t enough simply to impede legislative process. Whatever methods or tactics are brought to bear should still conform to the law. Filibustering acheives this purpose but fleeing the jurisdiction does not. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/92 "2011-03-05T06:27:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I predict this would be self-defeating for the left. > > I mean, if you can’t be endlessly telling us all how to act, how to think, what words we can use, what’s wrong with us, what our attitudes should be and what our consciences ought be telling us, what else have you got? The facts. Tea Party people like Walker also by “coincidence” has prevented any action that the government in Wisconsin was making regarding green jobs. After all, there is no reason why to do that when there is no really no problem like global warming :rolleyes:, like the favorite of the deniers and tea partiers Lord Monkton always says: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/fbW-aHvjOgM/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGDsgWihlMA8=&rs=AOn4CLA6c3V66VHY9u7lT75x_FjzBEhQxw "Monckton Bunkum Part 1 - Global cooling and melting ice") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbW-aHvjOgM) Facts are not for people like Monkton or most of the Republican leadership. It is not too hard to see that the misinformation that Lord Monkton is making is then recycled or swallowed by the tea partiers and Republicans with the help and support of the oil companies. > **[The Koch Brothers’ Covert Ops](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/08/30/covert-operations?currentPage=all)** > > What sets the billionaire brothers apart is the sheer size of their donations to Tea Party issues. > **[The Church of Monckton](https://bbickmore.wordpress.com/the-church-of-monckton/)** > > Over on Lord Monckton’s Rap Sheet, I showed quite clearly that Christopher Monckton is not the most… reliable source of information.  Usually he would be the kind of person one would po… [http://climateprogress.org/2010/12/14/tea-party-walker-kills-high-speed-rail-in-wisconsin/](http://climateprogress.org/2010/12/14/tea-party-walker-kills-high-speed-rail-in-wisconsin/) The blind are indeed guiding the blind among Republicans nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/93 "2011-03-05T06:30:28Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > I don’t know the poll numbers in Wisconsin, but in Ohio it’s about 60-40 against our version of the bill. But yet, the bill passed. If the numbers in Wisconsin are similar, the Republican legislators are actually going _against_ the wishes of the majority of their constituents. You mean like the Democrats did when they passed the health care bill that was opposed by the majority of Americans? To be clear, I think it’s fine to do that - the whole point of representative government is to prevent the whims of the populace from dictating the day-to-day decisions of government. You elect your representatives, and then they may have to make hard choices that the people at that time oppose. If they still oppose it by the next election and it’s a big enough deal to them, out you go. To the OP’s point, I think you can make reasonable arguments on either side. What you can’t do is justify it when Democrats do it, and then claim it’s invalid when Republicans do it. > [@Fear Itself](#): > > Denying the quorum is the legislative process. It is consistent with the rules of the Wisconsin senate. Quorum rules are generally enforced to prevent circumstances where a small minority of decision-makers use the absence of the majority to pass rules. You don’t want a massive snowstorm to result in five Republicans showing up and passing a flurry of laws while everyone else is stranded. The fact that fleeing legislators have to leave the state and hide would suggest to me that intentionally gaming the quorum rule is not intended to be part of a legitimate process. On the other hand, to me anything that throws another wrench in the workings of government is probably a good thing. I just don’t want to hear you guys whine and moan about it the next time Republicans do it, like you whine and moan about the filibuster when Republicans are in the minority but champion it when Democrats are in the minority. Furthermore, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. If the Democrats don’t come back in time to pass some sort of interim financing deal and Wisconsin winds up having to pay an extra 150 million bucks or suffers other bad consequences, then it’s on the Democrats, and they’ll be held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/94 "2011-03-05T07:08:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > On the other hand, to me anything that throws another wrench in the workings of government is probably a good thing. I just don’t want to hear you guys whine and moan about it the next time Republicans do it, like you whine and moan about the filibuster when Republicans are in the minority but champion it when Democrats are in the minority. > > Furthermore, you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions. If the Democrats don’t come back in time to pass some sort of interim financing deal and Wisconsin winds up having to pay an extra 150 million bucks or suffers other bad consequences, then it’s on the Democrats, and they’ll be held accountable. Even the Economist magazine, that congratulated Walker on taking on the unions, had to say that Walker is overreaching and making a mistake when he is uncompromising regarding the collective bargaining bit and concentrating on unions that are mostly democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/95 "2011-03-05T07:42:40Z")
Well, I haven’t really commented on that. I was talking strictly about the quorum tactic. But you may well be right. I do think the Republicans land on weaker ground when they go beyond the fiscal concessions and start talking about bargaining rights. There’s plenty of populist anger at the public unions the Republicans can draw on, but that doesn’t mean there’s general anger at the whole concept of collective bargaining. So the Republicans are certainly taking a chance of losing their gain in standing. Ultimately, you and others on your side will make the best arguments for your point of view as you can, and the other side will do the same, and we’ll have to see where political opinion goes. The early evidence is that this is in fact hurting the Republicans a bit. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/96 "2011-03-05T07:48:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Whatever methods or tactics are brought to bear should still conform to the law. Filibustering acheives this purpose but fleeing the jurisdiction does not. Unsurprisingly, and for the umpteenth time in your stupidity-littered career on these boards, you missed the point of my argument again. I was arguing precisely and specifically about the extent to which these tactics constituted, as a matter of principle (not of law) a subversion of representative democracy. Even if filibustering is allowed by the rules, and failing to appear is not, this does not change the extent to which those two tactics act to impede the democratic process. As it happens, i actually think that the Democrats should not have departed. I tend to agree with the OP that tactics like this are problematic in a representative democracy, and i also dislike the type of hypocrisy that supports this sort of tactic when one side does it, but condemns the same tactic when the other side does it. But, legal or not, filibustering has virtually exactly the same intent, and exactly the same effect, and so even if it’s allowed by the rules, it is still contradictory to ideas of how legislative democracy is supposed to work. Which is the only point i was making. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/97 "2011-03-05T10:18:43Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Stop the presses! Someone is getting a heavy liberal slant from a board that is known to slant liberal. Aaaccctually, someone here in the Pit (I believe) asserted that this board slants right wing, because it generally doesn’t question corporate power, or something like that. (Damn, I wish I could find it again… I think it was **gonzomax** who said it, but I’m not sure…?) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/98 "2011-03-05T10:54:01Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > no, see, they’ll actually take my tax payments and use them for something other than paying 70k for toll collectors. like, you know, actually ameliorating poverty or helping everyone instead of a narrow subset of represented workers. Which would make you more of a socialist than any of the so-called lefties in this thread, who appear to be confusing class warfare with fairness. Oh, the irony, it burns… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/99 "2011-03-05T11:03:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Aaaccctually, someone here in the Pit (I believe) asserted that this board slants right wing, because it generally doesn’t question corporate power, or something like that. It seems centrist at most to me. Of course that makes it left wing by American standards, because there really isn’t all that much that _isn’t_ left wing by American standards. > [@Steophan](#): > > Which would make you more of a socialist than any of the so-called lefties in this thread, who appear to be confusing class warfare with fairness. Since there is constant class warfare from the wealthy, “fairness” does imply that the non-rich should fight back instead of just grovelling in worship before the wealthy and asking for more punishment like Americans tend to do. I’ve never heard of a more spineless bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554/100 "2011-03-05T11:25:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since there is constant class warfare from the wealthy, “fairness” does imply that the non-rich should fight back instead of just grovelling in worship before the wealthy and asking for more punishment like Americans tend to do. I’ve never heard of a more spineless bunch. Yeah, not so much. The rich in general don’t give much of a shit about the poor one way or another, and would rather just ignore them. This seems to be what the left finds so hard to understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-fucking-board-is-pushing-me-towards-voting-republican/573554.md?page=6)