# This has to stop: extreme actions at political gathering **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2019, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927 "2019-11-24T19:15:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/161 "2019-11-25T21:07:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The thought of what America, > The thought of what America, > The thought of what America would be like > If [DEL][COLOR=“Black”]the Classics[/DEL] [/COLOR] History had a wide circulation > Troubles my sleep. > > CMC fnord! 5 o’clock somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/162 "2019-11-25T21:36:38Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Thanks to OP for introducing us to his impartial news source. Nice try, but wrong. It was on Facebook first, and then removed from FB. Searching, it was found on redstate. Which I’d never before been to. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/163 "2019-11-25T21:46:18Z")
> [@pool](#): > > One could argue that the beatdown was more justified however because the owner was preventing a crime against his property. At that point it appears the guy is to the side of the car and out of danger and continues to escalate the situation. One could argue that the “crime against property” was more justified because the pedestrian was preventing an attempt on his life. Seriously, we’re attempting the defend someone hitting someone with their truck then finishing the job with their fists, because they’re afraid of a stick? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/164 "2019-11-25T22:00:55Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > Nice try, but wrong. > > It was on Facebook first, and then removed from FB. Searching, it was found on redstate. Which I’d never before been to. Yeah, that’s not contradicting what he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/165 "2019-11-25T22:12:01Z")
> [@Bullitt](#): > > An Antifa guy tried blocking someone’s car, smacks the car with a bat or pipe. It did not end well for him. > > [Protester Tries to Block a Car and Assault Someone, It Doesn't Go Well (Seriously) [UPDATED] – RedState](https://www.redstate.com/bonchie/2019/11/23/antifa-member-tries-block-car-assault-someone-doesnt-go-well-seriously/) > > Can’t we discuss civilly? Protest civilly? Agree to disagree, then vote accordingly? …from your original cite: > [@Red State](#): > > While the guy tweeting the video (it’s originally from Live Leak’s site) says this is “extinction rebellion,” that’s not really much of a thing in the U.S. and you can clearly hear the driver is American. This is likely just a regular, Antifa anti-capitalist. You can see that the man in the SUV got out tried to get the protestor to move, but he came right back into the road. So the evidence that Red States presents to demonstrate that this protester is actually “anti-fa” is…well they don’t present any evidence at all. They just think its likely to be “just a regular Antifa anti-capitalist.” This isn’t news. There is no context here, no story. We don’t know when this was filmed, we don’t know where this was filmed, we don’t know who was driving the car or who was hit. I’ve done a cursory search through various news agencies and (allegedly the original source, LiveLeak) and I can’t find anything else about this video. This is propaganda. Disinformation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/166 "2019-11-25T22:39:58Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > OK, ignorance fought, I stand corrected. As a fairly staunch pacifist I’m still not entirely happy about people showing up to protests in armor with weapons, but I have a bit more respect for them if as you say they aren’t attending rallies looking for a fight. To be perfectly fair, a minority of them probably are. There’s probably a _that guy_ in every movement or group, or people who show up at the demo just for the testosterone rush. It is what it is. But I mean 3/4th of dedicated antifa are social sciences college nerds, they’re not exactly the type who call the Warriors out to play ;). Mostly they’re not interested in provoking violence if a staredown can suffice - they just don’t want neo-nazis marching through or recruiting in their 'hood. They will absolutely respond to violence in kind, though. > [@](#): > > That said, they could really use a PR component of their movement. That may be particularly challenging given their loose structure, but if I, a bleeding heart liberal, news junky gets the wrong idea about them, its unsurprising that the average man on the street would also get the wrong idea. Sure, that’s fair, and optics are very much an issue the ones I met seem to take to heart - which is why IME they’re typically fairly strict on the “no instigating, making **doubly sure** nobody can say they were instigating” bit and are (again, IME) quick to ostracize guys who are too eager to start some shit. But then again, based on (other, not fa/antifa related) demos I’ve been to, the media tends to be a \*\*lot \*\*more interested in filming the one guy throwing down or the one garbage can lit on fire than the entire rest of the street singing Kumbaya, you know ? And even if I know perfectly well why the masks and why the “black bloc” strategy (that is to say : to avoid getting singled out of a protest line for the purpose of roughing you up or worse later, when you’re on your own), I can’t really argue against the notion that it \*looks \*intimidating and “delinquent-y”. So it’s a problem, but there’s no really satisfying solution to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/167 "2019-11-25T23:13:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Ah, “and intimidate drivers.” Uprooted them goalposts, I see. > > Once again: blocking traffic isn’t terrorism, because **nobody’s terrorized**. Annoyed or irritated, maybe even upset. But **not** terrorized. That’s why it’s not terrorism. I disagree. Someone trapping me in traffic terrorizes the shit out of me. It negatively impacts my life, it can be a major safety hazard. Turning a 30 minute drive into a 2 hour drive makes me a tense, nerve-wracked mess. It even fits the definition of terrorism, as the US government defines it, which is “the unlawful use of force and violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives”. Blocking traffic and making people stuck for an indeterminate time is absolutely force against persons or property. It’s certainly illegal, and done to intimidate people. You are threatening a person’s way of life unless the changes you want made happen. Terrorism does not require the threat or actual infliction of bodily harm or death. It only requires a some show of force against people to intimidate them into accepting political demands. People intentionally blocking traffic disruptively fits that description. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/168 "2019-11-25T23:15:43Z")
Also, I call bullshit on the OP and the video. If this was an “antifa protest”, where is the protest? Where are the signs, the rest of the group, etc.? It’s either a single mentally ill person or just faked. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/169 "2019-11-25T23:20:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > To be perfectly fair, a minority of them probably are. There’s probably a _that guy_ in every movement or group, or people who show up at the demo just for the testosterone rush. It is what it is. > But I mean 3/4th of dedicated antifa are social sciences college nerds, they’re not exactly the type who call the Warriors out to play ;). Mostly they’re not interested in provoking violence if a staredown can suffice - they just don’t want neo-nazis marching through or recruiting in their 'hood. > They will absolutely respond to violence in kind, though. > > Sure, that’s fair, and optics are very much an issue the ones I met seem to take to heart - which is why IME they’re typically fairly strict on the “no instigating, making **doubly sure** nobody can say they were instigating” bit and are (again, IME) quick to ostracize guys who are too eager to start some shit. > > But then again, based on (other, not fa/antifa related) demos I’ve been to, the media tends to be a \*\*lot \*\*more interested in filming the one guy throwing down or the one garbage can lit on fire than the entire rest of the street singing Kumbaya, you know ? And even if I know perfectly well why the masks and why the “black bloc” strategy (that is to say : to avoid getting singled out of a protest line for the purpose of roughing you up or worse later, when you’re on your own), I can’t really argue against the notion that it \*looks \*intimidating and “delinquent-y”. > So it’s a problem, but there’s no really satisfying solution to the problem. Sure there is. Enforce the law or change the law. I really would rather not have society governed by the most willing to get violent. Because regardless of what side prevails it will suck. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Chavez, Mugabe, Pol Pot, etc… have proven this. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/170 "2019-11-25T23:36:24Z")
[One of the worst terrorist attacks in American history.](https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&biw=1067&bih=449&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=WGTcXZHwIseA5wKdwaaAAg&q=edmund+pettus+bridge+selma+march&oq=Edmund+Pettus+Bridge+s&gs_l=img.1.2.0l4j0i8i30l3.42267.42786..49891...0.0..0.1101.3378.5-1j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67.X8o5jAo6950) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2019, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/171 "2019-11-25T23:55:33Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Sure there is. Enforce the law or change the law. I really would rather not have society governed by the most willing to get violent. Because regardless of what side prevails it will suck. Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Chavez, Mugabe, Pol Pot, etc… have proven this. That’s nice and all, but it doesn’t help the guys sent to hospital (or worse) by neo-nazis in the\* right now\*. All the more so in today’s America where, despite the FBI classifying neo nazi movements as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat, they’re saying that even if they had more resources and leeway to go after nazis, [it’s going to take years to make a dent](https://time.com/5647304/white-nationalist-terrorism-united-states/) (also the Trump admin has defanged them specifically when it comes to far right terrorism For Some Reason) ? And, again, the fascists are \*absolutely \*willing to get violent. Like, that’s the whole thing about fascists and why they shouldn’t be countenanced, ever. Their embracing violence as a legitimate first resort. Or for the fun of it. The fuckmooks who came to Charlottesville came armed (including guns), and the guy who killed Heather Heyer had talked about plowing his car into potential counter-protesters long before the rally actually took place. Why would any neighbourhood allow the presence of openly violent people in their midst ? “You have to tolerate the intolerant !” has always been a shit argument. I’m not saying there are easy answers. I’m not antifa myself, because not only am I a giant coward, also I weigh about 100 pounds and fly off even in the most moderate of mosh pits. But I am sympathetic to their cause, see where they’re coming from and I find the history & philosophy discussions that surround antifa very stimulating and thought provoking - I just received my copy of Mark Bray’s _Antifa Handbook_ (which, despite the title, is more of an history/philosophy book, there certainly are no streetfighting how-tos in there :p) and it’s really good so far. But yeah, it’s not as easy as “fight the nazis in the polling booths !” - especially when nazis have been actively infiltrating police and armed forces over the past 20 or so years for one thing ; and the police are not always suuuper diligent about protecting minority neighbourhoods for another. So what do ? And more importantly (or rather, to cut short the knee jerk response), what do when the police doesn’t protect you from them ? Or when it fights [with them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street) ? It’s your neighbourhood. At the end of the day, the media and the armchair philosophers can say whatever they like, you’re the guy or gal who has to \*live \*in it. If you can’t fight to make your own neighbourhood safe, and the people who’re supposed to keep it safe won’t then… what ? Just accept that you’re going to get beat up and/or murdered once in a while but it’s all good and proper 'cause you hung onto that precious moral high ground ? Do like that Charlottesville synagogue had to and hire fucking mercenaries ? ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/172 "2019-11-26T00:01:13Z")
Hey I know this is the Pit and all, but instead of becoming flagrantly and irrationally partisan, can we all agree that blocking cars is both a complete asshole move that is politically counterproductive and that the other dude went a bit too far? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/173 "2019-11-26T00:02:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > [One of the worst terrorist attacks in American history.](https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&biw=1067&bih=449&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=WGTcXZHwIseA5wKdwaaAAg&q=edmund+pettus+bridge+selma+march&oq=Edmund+Pettus+Bridge+s&gs_l=img.1.2.0l4j0i8i30l3.42267.42786..49891...0.0..0.1101.3378.5-1j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67.X8o5jAo6950) > > CMC fnord! Are you really trying to say that the Selma marches to raise awareness for racial injustice were solely trying to disrupt traffic to force political change? I read that they marched along the highway and broke no laws in the process. The protest was legal, peaceful, and effective. Next you’ll be saying that the March on Washington involved widespread looting and vandalism. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/174 "2019-11-26T00:05:14Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > Hey I know this is the Pit and all, but instead of becoming flagrantly and irrationally partisan, can we all agree that blocking cars is both a complete asshole move that is politically counterproductive and that the other dude went a bit too far? No, the other dude went WAY too far. I put myself in the situation of the guy in the truck and thought what I would do. I would never push a person with my vehicle (even slowly) because what if he fell in front and I crushed him? Nor would I get out and beat him. No rational person would even think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/175 "2019-11-26T00:07:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > [One of the worst terrorist attacks in American history.](https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&biw=1067&bih=449&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=WGTcXZHwIseA5wKdwaaAAg&q=edmund+pettus+bridge+selma+march&oq=Edmund+Pettus+Bridge+s&gs_l=img.1.2.0l4j0i8i30l3.42267.42786..49891...0.0..0.1101.3378.5-1j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i67.X8o5jAo6950) > > CMC fnord! > [@Atamasama](#): > > Are you really trying to say that the Selma marches to raise awareness for racial injustice were solely trying to disrupt traffic to force political change? No, he’s saying exactly the opposite of that. He’s pointing out how dumb it is to describe “blocking traffic” as a terrorist tactic, and also undercutting the argument that blocking traffic is an ineffective form of protest. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/176 "2019-11-26T00:12:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, he’s saying exactly the opposite of that. He’s pointing out how dumb it is to describe “blocking traffic” as a terrorist tactic, and also undercutting the argument that blocking traffic is an ineffective form of protest. By pointing to an unrelated situation? Again, I’m not aware of the Selma protestors barricading roads. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/177 "2019-11-26T00:20:01Z")
[Curiously wide pedestrian walkway on that bridge, strange lack of vehicular traffic that certainly has nothing with the police roadblock.](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Congress-A-Became-In-Ground-Symbol-Timed-Well-Was-March-Alabama-Selma-The-As-T-To-Between-Police-Pressure-Edmund-1965-Campaign-Battle-And-Protestors-/331784928) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/178 "2019-11-26T00:20:49Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > By pointing to an unrelated situation? Again, I’m not aware of the Selma protestors barricading roads. They literally walked. In the middle of a major highway. You don’t think that mighta coulda held up traffic some ? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/179 "2019-11-26T00:21:29Z")
Just to clarify, I consider this to be force illegally used against the populace: > **['Sorry, this is an emergency': Climate protesters block streets around the world](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-climate-change-protests/sorry-this-is-an-emergency-climate-protesters-block-streets-around-the-world-idUSKBN1WM1JP)** > > Thousands of climate-change protesters took to the streets in cities around the world on Monday, launching two weeks of peaceful civil disobedience to demand immediate action to cut carbon emissions and avert an ecological disaster. A standard non-violent protest (the kind I see on a regular basis in the Seattle area) which may cause some minor traffic issues doesn’t raise to that level. The Selma marches and other such actions that weren’t intentionally disruptive are not at all the same. I’m also not equating that level of disruption with terrorist attacks that take lives. You don’t throw those protestors in Gitmo or shoot them. But they are illegal and law enforcement does usually have the authority to stop it, and should (depending on the jurisdiction). ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927/180 "2019-11-26T00:38:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So the evidence that Red States presents to demonstrate that this protester is actually “anti-fa” is…well they don’t present any evidence at all. They just think its likely to be “just a regular Antifa anti-capitalist.” > > This isn’t news. There is no context here, no story. We don’t know when this was filmed, we don’t know where this was filmed, we don’t know who was driving the car or who was hit. I’ve done a cursory search through various news agencies and (allegedly the original source, LiveLeak) and I can’t find anything else about this video. > > This is propaganda. Disinformation. Well done, sir. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-has-to-stop-extreme-actions-at-political-gathering/843927.md?page=10)