# "This is a Catholic country". Your foetus is more important than your life. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966 "2012-11-14T07:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/1 "2012-11-14T07:49:27Z")
A 31-year-old woman, Savita Praveen Halappanavar, has died in an Irish hospital after being denied an abortion to save her life. [Link](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html) She was suffering a slow miscarriage and getting sicker and sicker, but doctors refused to abort the pregnancy, telling her “This is a Catholic country”. Her cervix was open for several days. She was in agonising pain. Eventually she contracted septicemia and died. Abortion has been legal in Ireland for 20 years when a woman’s life is in danger, following the Supreme Court decision in _Attorney General v X_. However, successive governments, fearing the wrath of the powerful (and very well-funded) anti-abortion movement, have refused to legislate for this decision and in the absence of clear guidelines on how to determine whether a woman qualifies, doctors have refused to take chances - lest they be prosecuted under 1861 legislation, which provides a penalty of life imprisonment for carrying out an abortion. In the 2010 case _ABC v Ireland_ the European Court of Human Rights found that the absence of legislation in this area rendered Ireland in breach of its Convention obligations. The government has dithered and delayed in responding to this decision. In the meantime, a woman is dead. I’m so angry and sad. What kind of a country am I living in? Who are these people that could stand back and watch a woman die for the sake of a foetus that had no chance of survival anyway? I can’t even write any more about this. It is barbaric and sickening. Ireland needs to be shamed internationally for this tragedy. RIP Savita ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/2 "2012-11-14T07:58:44Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > …[D]octors have refused to take chances - lest they be prosecuted under 1861 legislation, which provides a penalty of life imprisonment for carrying out an abortion… Very well, these doctors should be prosecuted for (at the very least) negligent homicide… Make it a contest between different laws. Maybe they were legally right, maybe wrong; let the court decide. Also, they should be disbarred for ignoring the [del]Hypocritic[/del] Hypocratic Oath. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/3 "2012-11-14T08:10:49Z")
This comes one day after Bishop John Fleming [wrote in the _Irish Times_](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1113/1224326525829.html): > [@](#): > > In fact, Ireland, without abortion, is recognised as one of the safest countries in the world to be a pregnant mother. This is something about which we should be proud and is a tribute to the excellent care provided by hospital staff who treat both mother and unborn child with equal dignity and respect as people in their own right. Clearly, if the life of the mother is threatened, by illness or some other medical condition, the care provided by medical professionals will make sure that she receives all the medical care needed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/5 "2012-11-14T08:26:19Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > Do you know how many cases there are of late term babies not just being aborted but killed after the abortion was botched. Got a cite for that? That ISN’T from some anti-abortion site, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/6 "2012-11-14T08:27:45Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > She was suffering a slow miscarriage and getting sicker and sicker, but doctors refused to abort the pregnancy, telling her “This is a Catholic country”. Her cervix was open for several days. She was in agonising pain. Eventually she contracted septicemia and died. A victory for the anti-abortion movement. They got what they wanted; a woman was tortured to death in their name. They can slap each other’s backs and gloat about how they got one of the “sluts”. > [@scottmcdonald](#): > > no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. Plenty are. Plenty more than who are willing to admit it out loud, but even some of those. The anti-abortion movement is about the hatred of women; of course they like it when a woman dies because of their policy. I think it was Randall Terry who said “every woman who dies is a victory for morality” back in the 80s. > [@scottmcdonald](#): > > Do you know how many cases there are of late term babies not just being aborted but killed after the abortion was botched. Pretty much none. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/7 "2012-11-14T08:28:43Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > because its an anomaly. I understand that there have been several more cases in Ireland, but this is the first one where the family has been willing to come forward. > [@](#): > > no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. in fact, i think all clergypeople have ruled in favor of this. Not in Ireland they haven’t. They’ve campaigned against legislating for these cases, claiming there is no such thing as an abortion to save a woman’s life. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/8 "2012-11-14T08:58:52Z")
I hope Savita’s husband sues these clowns for every last Euro they have. Savita was septic, from a pregnancy that was ENDING. Sepsis leads to death. She might have had a chance if she didn’t have such useless doctors that don’t see sepsis when it’s in their faces. Where the fuck, Scottmacdonald are you getting this utter bullshit about late-term-abortions? A woman is dead, because some people are fucking useless. Savita is dead, because some people can’t see facts. Savita is dead, even though she tried to help herself and her unborn fetus. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/9 "2012-11-14T09:04:21Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > because its an anomaly. So we shouldn’t get upset because it’s not a standard practice? It only happens every now and then, don’t get in a twist about it? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/10 "2012-11-14T10:21:41Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > So we shouldn’t get upset because it’s not a standard practice? It only happens every now and then, don’t get in a twist about it? :dubious: “Look, I know I killed that guy with an axe but hey; it was just this one time thing, see?” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/11 "2012-11-14T11:59:22Z")
I approve 100% this pitting. **Ruadh** are you going to the march at 6pm? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/12 "2012-11-14T12:06:05Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > because its an anomaly. no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. in fact, i think all clergypeople have ruled in favor of this. Do you know how many cases there are of late term babies not just being aborted but killed after the abortion was botched. Give me a break. What you posted is gross but clearly a total anomaly. google botched abortion doctor and or abortion clinic shut down, youll get more nauseous unless you have a really disturbed double standard. What has any of your bullshit got to do with what the OP described? The procedure has been legal in Ireland for 20 years specifically for cases like Savita Halappanavar’s but because of the cowardice and half-baked religious notions of our supposed leaders the legislation to implement it has been in political limbo ever since. Even with the legislation in place Ireland would have some of the strictest abortion laws in the world so your “won’t someone think of the children” whataboutery doesn’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/13 "2012-11-14T14:10:26Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > because its an anomaly. no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. There are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and there are more religious persons than those you know. The Association of Pro-Life Physicians is [against abortion even in the case of ectopic pregnancies](http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm). Students for Life is a little wishy-washier on the topic; they avoid outright condemning such abortions in favor of [downplaying risks to the mother’s health and upplaying lifesaving modern medical technology](http://studentsforlife.org/prolifefacts/what-abortion-the-health-of-the-mother/) (gestational diabetes is NACHURAL, y’all!). And in case you wanna get nitpicky on the definition of religious people, Pro-Life Physicians identifies as a religious group. Students for Life frames themselves as a secular group, but I notice that the majority of people praising them on their Endorsements page are religious: members of clergy, heads of more openly religious groups, and self-identified Christians. > [@scottmcdonald](#): > > in fact, i think all clergypeople have ruled in favor of this. I’m pretty amused at the idea of all clergypeople ever ruling unanimously on anything, ever. But here, specifically on this topic, plenty of clergy-type folks have stated a la Joe Walsh that abortions for reasons of health are either not needed, or against God’s will. Here’s [one quote](http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/document-print.aspx?ID=596) from the Bishop of Spokane > [@](#): > > Second, Measure 11, admittedly, is not a perfect law. It allows for exceptions, which is problematic. We want the dignity of human life respected for all. In fact, it was unfortunate that early on, some of the literature distributed in support of Measure 11 used ill-chosen wording, noting that this initiative has “reasonable exceptions to allow women to have abortions in cases of rape, incest, life and health of the mother.” Such portrayals do not represent the views of the Catholic Church and I was pleased to learn that this has been corrected. There is nothing reasonable about accepting that the lives of some children are of less value than the lives of others. We want the lives of all unborn children protected. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/14 "2012-11-14T14:49:10Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > **this is propaganda** because its an anomaly. no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. in fact, i think all clergypeople have ruled in favor of this. Do you know how many cases there are of late term babies not just being aborted but killed after the abortion was botched. Give me a break. What you posted is gross but clearly a total anomaly. google botched abortion doctor and or abortion clinic shut down, youll get more nauseous unless you have a really disturbed double standard. This is not propaganda this is a dead woman who would still be alive and able to bear live children had the doctors acted to save her life. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/15 "2012-11-14T14:55:10Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > In the 2010 case _ABC v Ireland_ the European Court of Human Rights found that the absence of legislation in this area rendered Ireland in breach of its Convention obligations. The government has dithered and delayed in responding to this decision. It seems that there is also some dithering on the part of the EU, which apparently has failed to punish Ireland sufficiently to bring it into compliance with the law. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/16 "2012-11-14T14:59:45Z")
“This is a Catholic country” - ? With a 5% Protestant minority? (compare the the USA’s 2% Jewish minority) OT/Hijack, but of the precious few of the Easter Rising that General Maxwell didn’t shoot, if only Eamon de Valera hadn’t been among them then the victim in the OP and many, many other lives would be spared. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/17 "2012-11-14T15:17:28Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It seems that there is also some dithering on the part of the EU, which apparently has failed to punish Ireland sufficiently to bring it into compliance with the law. The European Court of Human Rights isn’t an EU institution. I’m not clear what sanction can be brought to bear against Ireland for not abiding by the judgement of that court. Does anyone know? Anyway, it’s a horrible case, and there’s a ton of blame to go around: the cowardice of politicians not willing to stand up to the baleful influence of the Church, for a start. They wouldn’t even codify the decision made by their own Supreme Court 20 years ago. Northern Ireland isn’t much better for abortion rights, and that’s part of the UK. [Northern Ireland's first private abortion clinic braced for protests | Abortion | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/18/ireland-abortion-clinic-protests) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/18 "2012-11-14T15:20:05Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > This is not propaganda this is a dead woman who would still be alive and able to bear live children had the doctors acted to save her life. I made a quick perusal of Ireland’s constitution after seeing this thread. It seems to me that the doctors failed to follow that country’s basic law. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/19 "2012-11-14T16:00:49Z")
Wow. I would have been holding doctors at gunpoint to help my wife. And had she died, I’d be taking some doctors with me too. How do you just stand around and let some stupid people torture your wife to death? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/20 "2012-11-14T16:09:09Z")
That’s some real blame-the-victim stuff right there. And really, threatening or attacking staffers in a hospital isn’t going to get you anything except escorted out by security. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/21 "2012-11-14T16:10:10Z")
It’s all our fault. The politicians have been too scared or are too religious themselves to make the law that the country has already voted on and passed. The people should have made sure the politicans passed this law so that doctors would not have to make a call that could end their carreer. I’m so angry about this. That poor woman. Dying in agony because of my country’s morallity. It’s beyond sickening. If you are a Catholic fine, don’t have a fucking abortion, marry a person of the opposite sex and don’t use protection but fuck off and don’t push your morality on others. This baby was not going to live and they delayed because a heartbeat was still there. Hopefully this will kick things off and force the change we need. Doesn’t help Savita one little bit but hopefully the next Savita won’t have to die in agony. Pity we have to be shamed into these things. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=2)