# "This is a Catholic country". Your foetus is more important than your life. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966 "2012-11-14T07:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/42 "2012-11-14T21:00:59Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > What the hell kind of Doctors are these? Catholic? ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/43 "2012-11-14T21:08:01Z")
> [@Freakenstein](#): > > If I understood the story right, the doctors knew the kid is going to die, but it had to die all by itself, before the doctors were going to do anything for the mother? > That’s pretty much a murder in My eyes. Ethically yes. But morally no. (Morality is custom, tradition, faith and law. Ethics is reason, care, respect and conscience. I’m on kind of a kick about pointing out the difference lately, as I feel society suffers from too much morals and not enough ethics.) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/44 "2012-11-14T21:53:47Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > A 31-year-old woman, Savita Praveen Halappanavar, has died in an Irish hospital after being denied an abortion to save her life. … “This is a Catholic country”. Her cervix was open for several days. She was in agonising pain. Eventually she contracted septicemia and died. … > > Abortion has been legal in Ireland for 20 years when a woman’s life is in danger, following the Supreme Court decision in _Attorney General v X_. However, successive governments, fearing the wrath of the powerful (and very well-funded) anti-abortion movement, have refused to legislate for this decision and in the absence of clear guidelines on how to determine whether a woman qualifies, doctors have refused to take chances - lest they be prosecuted under 1861 legislation, which provides a penalty of life imprisonment for carrying out an abortion. > … > I’m so angry and sad. What kind of a country am I living in? Who are these people that could stand back and watch a woman die for the sake of a foetus that had no chance of survival anyway? > > I can’t even write any more about this. It is barbaric and sickening. Ireland needs to be shamed internationally for this tragedy. > > RIP Savita ☹ It will not stop, until the people clean house. Get religion out of government and KEEP it out. Get the toady politicians who serve them out of government. This was one of the few things we got right over here, the first time - even though there are always those who want to change it. Believe me, there are those who would love to see that shit here too. Clean house. Get them OUT. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/45 "2012-11-14T22:34:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I think it was Randall Terry who said “every woman who dies is a victory for morality” back in the 80s. I’ve heard you mention this before – could you find a cite for the exact wording? I’ve tried finding it and couldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/46 "2012-11-14T22:34:43Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > This is another thing. I can’t comprehend these people. How can you possibly lack this type of empathy and watch a woman die in agony like this? Religion. If Ireland wasn’t a nation dominated by religiously motivated woman haters, then they wouldn’t have such restrictions on abortion in the first place. This sort of thing is part of the point of such laws; odds are good the doctors actively enjoyed what happened to her, and I’m certain that the people who wrote & supported the laws had smiles on their faces when they got the news. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/47 "2012-11-14T23:09:36Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > There are more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy, and there are more religious persons than those you know. The Association of Pro-Life Physicians is [against abortion even in the case of ectopic pregnancies](http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm). Students for Life is a little wishy-washier on the topic; they avoid outright condemning such abortions in favor of [downplaying risks to the mother’s health and upplaying lifesaving modern medical technology](http://studentsforlife.org/prolifefacts/what-abortion-the-health-of-the-mother/) (gestational diabetes is NACHURAL, y’all!). > > I’m pretty amused at the idea of all clergypeople ever ruling unanimously on anything, ever. But here, specifically on this topic, plenty of clergy-type folks have stated a la Joe Walsh that abortions for reasons of health are either not needed, or against God’s will. Here’s [one quote](http://www.priestsforlife.org/columns/document-print.aspx?ID=596) from the Bishop of Spokane Doctors who think half the human race should not be treated for a medical condition should not be doctors. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency and should be treated as such. The bishop clearly believes that actual grown women are worth less than fertilized eggs and should therefore not be allowed within twenty feet of actual grown women. Is the OP a common situation in Ireland? Are Irish women routinely treated like cattle by the psychopaths who apparently run the place? ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/48 "2012-11-15T00:00:12Z")
If my wife and I (both Catholic) lived in Ireland back in 1990, she would have been “another” anomaly as well. Unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/49 "2012-11-15T00:10:27Z")
Maybe it’s a Yank thing, but my racism meter went off with her name. Of course, this side of the pond, a poor woman who can’t afford to cross the distance from Galway to the UK would often be of Irish descent, and the doctors Indian. A woman dies in hospital after days of sepsis, and no one stops it? No injunction, no special dispensation, no, “Get her on a plane to the UK if you have to”? ETA: Just read the linked article. She was a dentist? Should have gotten out of there. May not have been able to travel. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Ethically yes. But morally no. > > (Morality is custom, tradition, faith and law. Ethics is reason, care, respect and conscience. I’m on kind of a kick about pointing out the difference lately, as I feel society suffers from too much morals and not enough ethics.) I would probably define the terms almost the other way around, but yes, these guys need some training in consequentialist bioethics, instead of relying on procedural, not morality, but ass-covering. I’d like to sue the hospital away from its management and put its administration in the hands of “heathens” like Ms. Halappanavar. That might teach them. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/50 "2012-11-15T00:12:54Z")
> [@scottmcdonald](#): > > because its an anomaly. no religious person I know of is against abortion to save a mothers life. I know this poster isn’t going to be around to finish this argument, but I’ll just point out that this is completely wrong. [Just last week](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/09/ohio-heartbeat-bill_n_2101189.html): > [@](#): > > Just two days after a majority of Ohio voters indicated at the polls that they support abortion rights, the GOP-controlled Ohio state legislature announced plans to reconsider a controversial bill that would ban all abortions after the fetal heartbeat is detected, without exceptions for rape, incest or life of the mother. So, yeah, anti-choicers do support laws that would kill women like Savita Halappanavar. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/51 "2012-11-15T00:18:16Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > I know this poster isn’t going to be around to finish this argument, but I’ll just point out that this is completely wrong. . Gone already. Good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/52 "2012-11-15T01:11:27Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Doctors who think half the human race should not be treated for a medical condition should not be doctors. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency and should be treated as such. > > The bishop clearly believes that actual grown women are worth less than fertilized eggs and should therefore not be allowed within twenty feet of actual grown women. You know, I quite often find myself believing that if the bishop or the other folks in charge of creating these situations could tell in advance that the embryo or fetus is female, abortion wouldn’t be out of the question. Then I remember that they’re probably thinking, “Serves her right for making another female,” completely ignoring the fact that it’s the male’s “contribution” that determines the gender. Another poster alluded already to the issue of racism that may be involved. If it is, well, sadly, I wouldn’t be surprised. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/53 "2012-11-15T01:24:27Z")
Went to the march on the Dail (parliament) earlier. Good turn out at short notice and there are more protests, vigils etc. We need to vote there callous cowardly creatures out. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/54 "2012-11-15T01:53:56Z")
Good for you. Toss them out. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/55 "2012-11-15T02:03:13Z")
“pro life” my ass. I hope you can get things changed. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/56 "2012-11-15T02:45:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion. If Ireland wasn’t a nation dominated by religiously motivated woman haters, then they wouldn’t have such restrictions on abortion in the first place. This sort of thing is part of the point of such laws; **odds are good the doctors actively enjoyed what happened to her, and I’m certain that the people who wrote & supported the laws had smiles on their faces when they got the news**. > > _ **bolding** and coloring added by me. – **kd99** _ Go be on someone else’s side for a while; you’re stinking up the place for the we of the Forces of Goodness and Light who are trying to make the world **better**. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/57 "2012-11-15T02:51:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion. If Ireland wasn’t a nation dominated by religiously motivated woman haters, then they wouldn’t have such restrictions on abortion in the first place. This sort of thing is part of the point of such laws; odds are good the doctors actively enjoyed what happened to her, and I’m certain that the people who wrote & supported the laws had smiles on their faces when they got the news. Away and fuck off **Der Trihs**. You really are not helping. Grow the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/58 "2012-11-15T03:18:20Z")
Threads like this make me wonder if **Der Trihs** is trying to be a conservative Stephen Colbert. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/59 "2012-11-15T03:24:15Z")
Oh, my, I bashed people who torture women to death in the name of their religion, how terribly unfair and unreasonable of me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/60 "2012-11-15T03:31:54Z")
I was going to call **Der Trihs** to task for that, but I see you guys already have. Do you honestly think that anyone involved in this decision feels good about it? ETA: A post snuck in on me. I think the people who created the circumstance for this decision to be made and have these consequences try very hard not to think in terms of how it affects individual women. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/61 "2012-11-15T03:53:42Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Do you honestly think that anyone involved in this decision feels good about it? Yes. Either patting themselves on the back for their own righteousness, or gloating over the death of a “slut”, a “Daughter of Eve”; the source of all the evil in the world. Or both. And she was a brown person who followed a “false religion” to boot. I don’t feel obligated to pretend that people who have a long history of the abuse of women and a known religiously based disdain for them are “well meaning but misguided”. They’ve tormented and killed women for all these generations because they _like_ it. There are bullies and sadists everywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=4)