# "This is a Catholic country". Your foetus is more important than your life. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966 "2012-11-14T07:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/102 "2012-11-15T23:50:56Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Yeah, true enough. The idea that India has some kind of moral leg to stand on on this issue was really bothering me; I’m not a huge fan of abortion (although still pro-choice), but female infanticide makes me quite angry. I guess the way it looks to me is India saying, “Allowing a woman to die because of your religion is wrong. But pay no attention to us killing female fetuses because we don’t think women are as good as men!” I honestly don’t know enough about the Indian government to comment. I was just glad to hear that someone in a high place outside of Ireland chided the Irish on this one. I wonder what the reaction would have been had she been American? Would the religious right have thrown a hissy fit of Obama told the Irish government to stop kissing the backsides of arrogant, theocratic, sexist old men? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/103 "2012-11-16T00:05:15Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > This comes one day after Bishop John Fleming [wrote in the _Irish Times_](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1113/1224326525829.html): He’s not wrong in one of his premises. The maternal mortality rate is [http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/maternal\_mortality\_rate.html](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2223rank.html)"]6 deaths per 100k women in Ireland as of 2010, compared to the US’s 24. I think the fact that COBRA doesn’t cover pregnancies without complications may compound the higher death rate in the US. This case is obviously very upsetting, but don’t let the spotlight fallacy get you: > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Is the OP a common situation in Ireland? Are Irish women routinely treated like cattle by the psychopaths who apparently run the place? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/104 "2012-11-16T00:11:20Z")
Buggered the link and missed edit window. [This](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2223rank.html) ought to work. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/105 "2012-11-16T01:11:12Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Yeah, true enough. The idea that India has some kind of moral leg to stand on on this issue was really bothering me; I’m not a huge fan of abortion (although still pro-choice), but female infanticide makes me quite angry. I guess the way it looks to me is India saying, “Allowing a woman to die because of your religion is wrong. But pay no attention to us killing female fetuses because we don’t think women are as good as men!” Apparently India feels that live women are more important than fetuses anyway. Unlike Ireland. (Damn I’m glad my grandparents left…) ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/106 "2012-11-16T02:09:15Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > One common quote of the “pro-life” movement is “Abortion is never medically necessary to save a mother’s life.” Really? Don’t worry, Eamon O’Dwyer is here to provide “clarity and confirmation”: [ > [@](#): > > “As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman. > > “We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child. ]([http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html)) See how clear that is? Shame on those doctors for not providing the [del]abortion[/del] **medical treatments** that could have saved her life. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/107 "2012-11-16T03:23:52Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Not racist but I feel the bigotry. Do you think they would have said “This is a Catholic Country” to a Catholic? To a Catholic from another country, maybe. I really don’t know the context so it’s just supposition but if I were a doctor or nurse or whatever in that hospital I might decide to explain to a family obviously not originally from Ireland that because of the Catholic ethos of the law an abortion would not be a possibility. I’m not defending anyone or the state of affairs but neither I nor you or anyone else posting in this thread knows exactly how this was communicated to Savita’s husband. It could have been judgemental, sectarian, or it could have been compassionate. Either way until the investigations are concluded we’re not going to know. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/108 "2012-11-16T03:30:33Z")
A day after hearing about this, I have more sympathy for the physicians than I did at first. They were trying to operate within ethical lines. As a physician, you learn to lose patients, not your career. They didn’t know she was septic (though apparently they should have). They hoped it would clear up. They took their chances (though it sounds like the chances were bad). It’s after the fact that it looks really damning. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/109 "2012-11-16T03:31:40Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > It’s not clear why they wouldn’t do an emergency c-section to try to save both mother and baby – even knowing the baby wouldn’t make it?? 17 weeks gestation. That would be a surgical abortion at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/110 "2012-11-16T03:45:36Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > A day after hearing about this, I have more sympathy for the physicians than I did at first. They were trying to operate within ethical lines. Clearly they were not, or they wouldn’t have put her life at risk and ultimately killed her over a fetus that was doomed to begin with. This was, at _best_, them throwing her under a bus to save themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/111 "2012-11-16T04:08:40Z")
I was trying to write a post sympathizing with the doctors, about how they had to choose their careers or this woman’s life, and then I realized that that shouldn’t have been a choice for them at all - how do you put your career over someone’s life? Especially as a doctor who is supposed to be all about helping people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/112 "2012-11-16T04:10:12Z")
It wouldn’t have been just their careers – I would imagine they’d also be facing prison time. Blame the laws in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/113 "2012-11-16T04:24:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > 17 weeks gestation. That would be a surgical abortion at that point. Thanks – for some reason I had it in my head she was farther along. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/114 "2012-11-16T04:25:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Bishop: "Does that sonogram look a bit \*fabulous \*to you? I spent a solid five minutes laughing at that. That’s almost as long as I laughed when South Korea, the country whose government and society swear all the day long that there aren’t any gays in their country, “branded” itself as “Korea…SPARKLING!” > [@Anaamika](#): > > Not racist but I feel the bigotry. Do you think they would have said “This is a Catholic Country” to a Catholic? ISTR a case where a minor girl was pregant and her parents wanted her to get an abortion in another country. (I don’t recall if the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest or if there were complications; but as a minor, statutory rape sounds believable as do complications in a minor.) The Irish government itself was against her leaving the country for that purpose. Now, I may be wrong about this and if I am, pease correct me. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/115 "2012-11-16T04:33:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It wouldn’t have been just their careers – I would imagine they’d also be facing prison time. Blame the laws in Ireland. Oh yeah, that’s right. Shit, that’s a terrible situation there. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/116 "2012-11-16T05:19:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Clearly they were not, or they wouldn’t have put her life at risk and ultimately killed her over a fetus that was doomed to begin with. This was, at _best_, them throwing her under a bus to save themselves. I said _ethical,_ not _good._ Doctors follow formal rules, and they have to be inured to losing patients. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/117 "2012-11-16T05:52:16Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I said _ethical,_ not _good._ Doctors follow formal rules, and they have to be inured to losing patients. Losing patients for medical reasons, not just because they are either cowards or actively wanted her to die. They knew she needed help, they knew how to help her, it was their _job_ to help her; instead they let her die in agony, no different than if they had just doused her in gasoline and lit it. It would have been more merciful and more honest if they had. Ethics, including professional ethics aren’t just about following rules; “I was just following orders” is not an excuse. Ethics that are indistinguishable from sociopathy aren’t ethics at all. Especially for a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/118 "2012-11-16T06:55:23Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > The European Court of Human Rights isn’t an EU institution. I’m not clear what sanction can be brought to bear against Ireland for not abiding by the judgement of that court. Does anyone know? Short of kicking Ireland out of the Council of Europe, not much. And it won’t. > [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Is the OP a common situation in Ireland? Well, let’s say it’s not unheard of. A number of Irish women have come out in recent days and said they had similar experiences, which they had kept quiet until now. I’m not surprised it took the death of a non-Irish woman for it to finally make the headlines - in rural Ireland in particular, this is something that families just wouldn’t want to talk about. > [@SanVito](#): > > The UK and Ireland have an agreement called the Common Travel Area, which means there are no border controls between the two countries. There actually are border controls (at least on the way back to Ireland). Plenty of migrant women have been unable to access abortion because of them. In fact, the Irish government for years have quietly given travel documents to asylum seekers to go to England for abortions, which to my mind really shows how hypocritical this country is about the whole thing. > [@gamerunknown](#): > > He’s not wrong in one of his premises. The maternal mortality rate is [http://www.indexmundi.com/ireland/maternal\_mortality\_rate.html](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2223rank.html)"]6 deaths per 100k women in Ireland as of 2010, compared to the US’s 24. The Irish MMR is actually higher than that; Ireland uses a narrower definition of maternal mortality than many other countries (I’m not sure if it’s narrower than the US’s though). That will change from next year when it becomes obliged to use the EU definition and the rate will spike. Though I understand from people working in the maternity services that it would probably spike anyway, because austerity is devastating the system. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/119 "2012-11-16T06:56:38Z")
Incidentally, for those in Dublin, protest at 4pm on Saturday at the Garden of Remembrance. Wednesday is an international day of action and there will be protests at Irish embassies and consulates worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/120 "2012-11-16T07:14:30Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Incidentally, for those in Dublin, protest at 4pm on Saturday at the Garden of Remembrance. Wednesday is an international day of action and there will be protests at Irish embassies and consulates worldwide. I’m gonna be in Galway on Saturday but hoping to go to the vigil there that day. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/121 "2012-11-16T10:59:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > A day after hearing about this, I have more sympathy for the physicians than I did at first. They were trying to operate within ethical lines. No they weren’t. Following religious nutbaggery which endangers the life of a person directly cannot, any way you try to spin it, be called “ethical.” > [@](#): > > As a physician, you learn to lose patients, not your career. I’m pretty sure there’s a little something called the Hypocratic Oath that may be construed differently. I’m pretty sure that they should feel **compelled** to break capricious, immoral laws – that are in no way designed to help anybody else, just hinder – in order to save their patient. But maybe that’s just me. > [@](#): > > They didn’t know she was septic (though apparently they should have). They hoped it would clear up. They took their chances (though it sounds like the chances were bad). So besides everything else, they are **also** incompetent? Figures… :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > It’s after the fact that it looks really damning. You don’t say. Those doctors are common criminals and should be treated as such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=7)