# "This is a Catholic country". Your foetus is more important than your life. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966 "2012-11-14T07:49:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/162 "2012-11-20T01:36:38Z")
From **Budget Player Cadet** ’s link: > [@](#): > > In fact, without abortion, Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for a mother to have a baby, according to the United Nations. Why does this remind me of this exchange in a British war movie I saw some time ago (note: I’m not sure of the exact wording, so I’m paraphrasing below)? > [@](#): > > Commanding Officer: How many of our soldiers dead? > Reporting Officer: Seven. Not bad. Not bad at all. > Commanding Officer: Unless you happen to be one of those seven. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/163 "2012-11-20T01:51:50Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why does this remind me of this exchange in a British war movie I saw some time ago (note: I’m not sure of the exact wording, so I’m paraphrasing below)? Or former DC mayor Marion Barry’s comment (also paraphrased from memory) when asked about crime in DC that “Except for the murders, DC doesn’t have a crime problem.” ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/164 "2012-11-20T08:03:13Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > To be even more clear, in my posting above, I mean that _a different procedure done to save the life of the woman_ may have as a possible consequence the termination of her pregnancy. An abortion specifically done as an abortion to save the life of the woman is not suddenly not an abortion. It’s still an abortion. Monty, the point that I am making is that the Irish anti-abortion groups don’t define “abortion” by the specific procedure that is used - most of them wouldn’t know one procedure from another, anyway - but by the reason the woman is undergoing that procedure. If it’s to save her life they say it’s not an abortion, no matter what “it” actually is or how it is carried out. If two women underwent identical procedures and one of them did it because her life depended on it and the other did it because for whatever reason she didn’t want to continue the pregnancy, they would deem the latter an abortion and the former not. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/165 "2012-11-20T08:06:39Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > [http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html) I’d just point out that that “symposium” was organised by longtime members of the Irish anti-abortion movement and all the speakers invited were known for their anti-abortion views. Frankly I’m not sure why the Times even bothered to cover it, but it was rather disgraceful that they didn’t point out that it was essentially a political and not a medical event. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/166 "2012-11-20T08:20:31Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I’d just point out that that “symposium” was organised by longtime members of the Irish anti-abortion movement and all the speakers invited were known for their anti-abortion views. Frankly I’m not sure why the Times even bothered to cover it, but it was rather disgraceful that they didn’t point out that it was essentially a political and not a medical event. Oh, I heard as much. Doesn’t make it any less disgraceful, though. And what’s worse: apparently it was partially organized by the hospital Sativa died in. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/167 "2012-11-20T08:29:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Oh, I heard as much. Doesn’t make it any less disgraceful, though. And what’s worse: apparently it was partially organized by the hospital Sativa died in. Well, by Eamon O’Dwyer who was part of that hospital’s Ob-Gyn department for many years. Also, a leading member of the campaign that brought in the constitutional ban on abortion in 1983. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/168 "2012-11-20T09:27:10Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > I mean, let’s be perfectly clear here. This was a case where a miscarried but still living fetus was poisoning the mother. There was _no feasible way_ to save her life without an abortion. None. Nada. Zip. Just doesn’t exist. And these people are still going to say that it’s never necessary? That’s not quite what they said: “We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.” All they’re doing is nitpicking saying that if the tratement is required to save the life of the mother, it’s not what they call an abortion. I know that’s daft, but they’re not claiming that its never required to do something that will cause the baby’s death. They’re just arguing over the label for such an action. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/169 "2012-11-20T11:35:42Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > That’s not quite what they said: > > “We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.” > > All they’re doing is nitpicking saying that if the tratement is required to save the life of the mother, it’s not what they call an abortion. I know that’s daft, but they’re not claiming that its never required to do something that will cause the baby’s death. They’re just arguing over the label for such an action. From talking to others here about it, it seems that such double think, for want of a better term, is commonplace here. Plenty of people I know are compassionate about a woman’s health and think that termination where the bearer’s life is in danger isn’t abortion at all. They would be otherwise totally against abortion. This is a weird country is all I can say. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/170 "2012-11-20T11:51:36Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > That’s not quite what they said: > > “We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.” > > All they’re doing is nitpicking saying that if the tratement is required to save the life of the mother, it’s not what they call an abortion. I know that’s daft, but they’re not claiming that its never required to do something that will cause the baby’s death. They’re just arguing over the label for such an action. Yes, but that’s still not accurate, as the _only_ medical procedure which could have been carried out to save the life of the mother, and which would have resulted in the loss of her unborn child, _was an abortion_. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/171 "2012-11-20T21:11:27Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > I would dispute that they actually do support it. Most of them insist that abortion is never necessary to save a woman’s life. There’s a bit of linguistic sleight of hand here, as they claim that if the purpose is to save the woman’s life then it isn’t an “abortion”, but then they also claim that any such procedure, to be acceptable, must do everything possible to preserve the life of the foetus. So in a situation where there really was no way to save the woman’s life but to intentionally destroy the foetus, they would side with the foetus. Even if the foetus would later die at birth. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/172 "2012-11-20T22:13:33Z")
> [@pikey\_pete](#): > > the funny thing is that the closest to abortion that the Bible comes is causing a woman to miscarry…which is treated like a property crime. Also, in several places, the Bible expresses that children less than one month old are property as well, not people. I don’t mind if people are anti-abortion, I just wish they would quit dressing their arguments up in holy vestments. Well, there’s also Psalm 137: > [@Psalm](#): > > O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. > > Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/173 "2012-11-21T07:48:11Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Yes, but that’s still not accurate, as the _only_ medical procedure which could have been carried out to save the life of the mother, and which would have resulted in the loss of her unborn child, _was an abortion_. :smack: No one is denying that. What we’re saying is that some people justify it by saying, “well, it’s not a _true_ abortion, it doesn’t count in this case, since it’s a medical procedure to save her life.” (Like removing a woman’s fellopian tube to treat an ectopic pregnancy) I know it’s an abortion, you know it’s an abortion. But people say all kinds of things to justify certain actions to themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/174 "2012-11-21T09:40:32Z")
And my question to ruadh was asking him to provide a cite that many of the anti-abortion groups, not just one, considered an abortion not an abortion. My experience in dealing with extremists is that they consider each and every abortion intended as an abortion, whether to save the life of the mother or not, to be an abortion. Said extremists even gloat over the death of a doctor who performs an abortion the extremist’s own religious group does not object to, such as one to save the life of the mother. The case in this thread shows that certain Catholics, such as those who genned up a messed up law in Ireland, consider an abortion, even to save the life of the mother, to not be permissible. That shows me that such a group are making one hell of a distinction between the procedure of abortion and any other procedure which may also cause a pregnancy to terminate. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/175 "2012-11-24T08:47:21Z")
Some examples of the double-speak of Irish anti-abortion groups: [Youth Defence](http://www.youthdefence.ie/am_cms_media/set-the-record-straight-newspaper-advert.pdf) (pdf): > [@](#): > > Abortion never saves a mother’s life – it just kills a baby. And it’s absolutely untrue to claim that necessary medical treatments for cancer and other conditions are abortions. [The Pro-Life Campaign](http://prolifecampaign.ie/?page_id=2539): > [@](#): > > Medical Council Guidelines are very clear that \*all necessary medical treatment \*must be given to women in pregnancy…It is also vitally important to acknowledge at this time that Ireland, _without induced abortion_… Family and Life: > [@](#): > > Abortion is never necessary to save the life of a mother. … No medical treatment is withheld from a woman because she is pregnant. [Society for the Protection of Unborn Children](http://www.spuc.org.uk/news/releases/2012/november14): > [@](#): > > Abortion is not medicine - it does not treat or cure any pathology…We do not oppose medical treatment which is necessary for the mother and targets her own body but may have an adverse side-effect on the baby such as unintended death/miscarriage BTW, I’m a “her”. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/176 "2012-11-24T23:19:03Z")
I haven’t been reading this thread because I’m already fucking incandescent with rage about this. Just to add to all the good stuff I would’ve felt anyway, my due date is just a few days after Savita Halappanavar’s would have been. And I’m in Dublin. So my life is, currently, officially disposable. If you’re outraged about this, please, don’t keep it to this thread. \*\*Write to our government. Tell them what you think. \*\* The Irish government will do what they’re told by Americans, long before they’ll do what their own people demand, or what basic human rights demand. \*\*You have much more power in this situation than I do. \*\*Our Taoiseach has already responded to ongoing protests and floods of emails by saying that he won’t be swayed by numbers (the will of the people is irrelevant, apparently): he’s going to ignore anything we do here in Ireland. He’s going to keep stalling and hope this goes away. He doesn’t give a fuck about us, or about right and wrong. But anything that strikes at our image in the US, at our tourism industry, at jobs coming in from overseas? That, he’ll care about. Write to our Taoiseach (Prime Minister), our Tánaiste (Deputy Prime Minister), our Minister for Justice, our Minister for Tourism, our Minister for Enterprise. Tell them what you think. Tell them that you wouldn’t feel safe coming on holiday here as a woman, or seeing your wife or daughter or any of your female friends come on holiday here, and that you’ll be telling every woman you know not to come near this place if she’s pregnant, because her life will be worthless on Irish soil. Tell them you could never recommend that your company set up business in Ireland, because you have female employees and you couldn’t transfer them to a country where their lives would be worthless if they were to become pregnant. Tell them you’ll keep spreading the word to everyone you know, until Ireland passes legislation saying that women’s right to live is not conditional. This has nothing to do with women’s right to choose. This is about women’s right to live. The Taoiseach: taoiseach@taoiseach.gov.ie The Tánaiste: eamon.gilmore@oir.ie or tanaiste@dfa.ie Minister for Justice and Equality: alan.shatter@oireachtas.ie or minister@justice.ie Minister for Tourism: minister@transport.ie Minister for Jobs and Enterprise: minister@djei.ie **Please, please, do it.** ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/177 "2012-11-26T23:40:15Z")
It’s been pointed out to me (and thank you again) that politicians are likely to take hard copy letters more seriously than emails. If anyone does have the time and the inclination to write - and I understand that very few people will have that much spare time for another country’s fuckwittery - here are the snail-mail addresses: Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Department of the Taoiseach, Government Buildings, Upper Merrion Street, Dublin 2 Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore, Office of the Tánaiste, Iveagh House, 80 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2. Minister Alan Shatter, Department of Justice and Equality, 94 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2 Minister Leo Varadkar, Department of Transport, Tourism amd Sport, 44 Kildare Street, Dublin 2, Ireland Minster Richard Bruton, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, 23 Kildare St., Dublin 2. ETA: What’d I, kill the whole thread?? ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/178 "2012-11-27T00:06:40Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > It’s been pointed out to me (and thank you again) that politicians are likely to take hard copy letters more seriously than emails. If anyone does have the time and the inclination to write - and I understand that very few people will have that much spare time for another country’s fuckwittery - here are the snail-mail addresses: > > Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Department of the Taoiseach, Government Buildings, Upper Merrion Street, Dublin 2 > > Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore, Office of the Tánaiste, Iveagh House, 80 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2. > > Minister Alan Shatter, Department of Justice and Equality, 94 St. Stephen’s Green, Dublin 2 > > Minister Leo Varadkar, Department of Transport, Tourism amd Sport, 44 Kildare Street, Dublin 2, Ireland > > Minster Richard Bruton, Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, 23 Kildare St., Dublin 2. > > ETA: What’d I, kill the whole thread?? Are those the complete addresses? Because I’ll be happy to take a few minutes to tell the fuckers who run your country that we won’t go there unless they get rid of this shitty law. My husband is Irish by heritage so visiting Ireland at some point was definitely on the table in the next few years. Congrats on your pregnancy, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/179 "2012-11-27T00:08:33Z")
Just a quibble to that “hard copy letters”, because of the treat of biological attack (although mostly fake powder sightings are reported nowadays), Many agents and publishers began to demand queries via email only over here in the USA, the local Latino free magazine in Phoenix for example does not accept any snail mail, and so are many politicians, so how is the situation in Ireland? Would they open snail mail coming from locations they do not expect or they will toss it? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/180 "2012-11-27T02:44:58Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Are those the complete addresses? Because I’ll be happy to take a few minutes to tell the fuckers who run your country that we won’t go there unless they get rid of this shitty law. My husband is Irish by heritage so visiting Ireland at some point was definitely on the table in the next few years. > > Congrats on your pregnancy, BTW. They are. You might need to stick Ireland or Republic Of Ireland on the end of them though if you’re abroad. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966/181 "2012-11-27T02:46:25Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Just a quibble to that “hard copy letters”, because of the treat of biological attack (although mostly fake powder sightings are reported nowadays), Many agents and publishers began to demand queries via email only over here in the USA, the local Latino free magazine in Phoenix for example does not accept any snail mail, and so are many politicians, so how is the situation in Ireland? Would they open snail mail coming from locations they do not expect or they will toss it? Hmmm, interesting question. If it were a substantial package of unknown provenance I’d say it would get the once over but that’s just supposition on my part. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-catholic-country-your-foetus-is-more-important-than-your-life/640966.md?page=10)