# This is a friendly pitting: Apostrophes and plurals **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 7, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880 "2010-07-07T18:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/21 "2010-07-07T22:14:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s = it is. Always\*. It’s been a long time since someone’s tried to convince me of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ignatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/3be4f8/32.png) [@Ignatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ignatz)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/22 "2010-07-07T22:37:33Z")
I gave up trying to point that out in post after post after the mod’s (sic) starting doing it. Like it says in the heading, “It’s taking longer than we thought.” It’s too late. I’m like, the end is, like, basically, near, y’know?. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/23 "2010-07-08T02:04:53Z")
Meh. They’re called Greengrocers’ apostrophes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/24 "2010-07-08T02:56:34Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s been a long time since someone’s tried to convince me of that. Has been is just the present perfect tense of is. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/25 "2010-07-08T04:03:55Z")
> [@Ignatz](#): > > I gave up trying to point that out in post after post after the mod’s (sic) starting doing it. > Like it says in the heading, “It’s taking longer than we thought.” It’s too late. I’m like, the end is, like, basically, near, y’know?. It’s like totally taking for _ever_. **Literally**. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/26 "2010-07-08T12:13:33Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > OK, but doesn’t this break the rule? The car possesses the ignition. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It breaks **Munch** ’s rule, yeah. Correct - sorry for any confusion, Shakes. “It’s” is the exception though, not the rule. But here’s the thing - you know there are two words “its” and “it’s”. And you know that “its” doesn’t mean “it is” (or “it has”), because there is no apostrophe to take the place of those missing letters. So “it is” can only be “it’s”, making “its” the possessive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/27 "2010-07-08T16:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > “It’s” is the exception though, not the rule. Its isn’t an exception. The use of an eclitic s to form a possessive is only used with nouns that are not normally possessive. Its follows the same pattern as other possessive pronouns like yours, ours, his, hers, whose, theirs, and mines. Okay, that last one might not be standard. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/28 "2010-07-08T18:15:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Has been is just the present perfect tense of is. No, that’s not why. It also works with “It’s left me with a sense of unease” or “It’s run off,” or any other present perfect verb, not just “be.” It’s means “it is” or “it has.” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/29 "2010-07-08T19:19:39Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > No, that’s not why. It also works with “It’s left me with a sense of unease” or “It’s run off,” or any other present perfect verb, not just “be.” > > It’s means “it is” or “it has.” Right. And “has” is just the present perfect tense of “to be”. “It’s” can also be “it was”. There is no other veb that this works with. “It’s” will always be _it_ + _to be_. What “other present perfect verb, not just be” are you thinking of? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/30 "2010-07-08T19:40:25Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Right. And “has” is just the present perfect tense of “to be”. It isn’t. It’s a particle that helps construct the present perfect tense. And, in fact, it is based on the verb “to have,” not “to be.” “Has been” is the present perfect tense of “to be,” but there are other possibilities. Where’s Charlie? He’s gone to Africa. _He has gone_. There’s no “to be” in there. I have good news! Brittney’s won the gold medal. _Brittney has won_. There’s no “to be” in there. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/31 "2010-07-08T21:34:59Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > But isn’t the apostrophe useful sometimes to aid legibility? Consider: > > He was a meticulous chap, always sure to dot his is and cross his ts. > > He was a meticulous chap, always sure to dot his i’s and cross his t’s. > > The second version seems preferable to me, rule or no rule. Which is why, according to many writing standards, you \*\*do \*\*use an apostrophe when forming the plural _of a single, lowercase letter_. Consider _The Gregg Reference Manual_ (9th ed., paragraphs 622-623), which is what I use at work: > [@](#): > > Capital letters and abbreviations ending with capital letters are pluralized by adding \*s \*alone. […] Some authorities still sanction the use of an apostrophe before the \*s \*(for example, _four C’s_, _PTA’s_). However, the apostrophe is functionally unnecessary except where confusion might otherwise result. […] For the sake of clarity, uncapitalized letters and uncapitalized abbreviations are pluralized by adding an apostrophe plus _s_. Examples include _three Rs_, _HMOs_, _BBSs_, _M.D.s_, \*two U’s \*(to avoid confusion with the word us), _p’s and q’s_, and _wearing pj’s_. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/32 "2010-07-08T23:48:46Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > It isn’t. It’s a particle that helps construct the present perfect tense. And, in fact, it is based on the verb “to have,” not “to be.” > > “Has been” is the present perfect tense of “to be,” but there are other possibilities. > > Where’s Charlie? He’s gone to Africa. _He has gone_. There’s no “to be” in there. > > I have good news! Brittney’s won the gold medal. _Brittney has won_. There’s no “to be” in there. Moreover, in some regions, the contraction is simply the use of the principle verb _have_: _He’s a lot of money, hasn’t he?_ All the same, it shouldn’t be a surprise that people confuse the orthography/notation of possessives with plurals. The use of an apostrophe indicates an inflection that used to be written exactly as many plurals still are written. In a way, the problem is that we can’t just use the apostrophe for plurals as we use it for possessives. We could write “There were bunch’s of carrots on the table” and no one would be worse for wear. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/33 "2010-07-09T00:53:53Z")
I’d prefer to get rid of existing apostrophes rather than authorizing more of them ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/34 "2010-07-09T01:18:51Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I’d prefer to get rid of existing apostrophes rather than authorizing more of them My point is that the whole purpose of apostrophes in the beginning was to reflect the phonology of the language–not the grammar. But the script police applied it only half-way. Now people like the OP are upset because they expect apostrophes to have a purely grammatical end. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/35 "2010-07-09T03:01:28Z")
I’m the OP and that’s nothing like what my expectations are. In fact I think it was a big mistake to make the apostrophe a marker of possession. The other Germanic languages don’t do it. It souls have been better to keep it solely god indicating missing letters, but that decision was made long ago. And when you say “reflect the phonology,” I think it’s a bit disingenuous to treat “indicating spaces where there used to be intervening phonemes” and “whenever there’s an _S_” as being equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/36 "2010-07-09T05:46:07Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > …In fact I think it was a big mistake to make the apostrophe a marker of possession. It only marks possession per se in as much as the genitive morphology of English became elided. > [@acsenray](#): > > And when you say “reflect the phonology,” I think it’s a bit disingenuous to treat “indicating spaces where there used to be intervening phonemes” and “whenever there’s an _S_” as being equivalent. No, they’re not equivalent. But its application for other elisions (_he’s_, _she’s_, etc.)–and more importantly–situations where sibilant possessives are necessary for clarity in speech and require some kind of demarcation in print (_The Jones’ cat_, i.e, “The cat of the Jones family”) show that it’s about notating phonology in general. The style guides of renown which say it’s better to write “Jones’” than to write “Jones’s”–even though most people will pronounce it the same–are probably what lead to people violating the very rules they promote–_the distinction isn’t phonetic_. And that’s the reason why it’s wrong for a person to write “_address’_” but correct for a person to write “_Jones’_”. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/37 "2010-07-09T06:08:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Right. And “has” is just the present perfect tense of “to be”. “It’s” can also be “it was”. There is no other veb that this works with. “It’s” will always be _it_ + _to be_. What “other present perfect verb, not just be” are you thinking of? What **acsenray** said. “Has” is not the present perfect of “to be”; it’s the third person singular present of “to have.” The third person singular present perfect of “to be” is “has been,” just as the 3p.s.p.p. of “to run” is “has run” or of “to eat” is “has eaten,” and likewise for any other verb. And you can use “it’s” for any of them: “it has run off” = “it’s run off,” “it has eaten its dinner” = “it’s eaten its dinner;” “it has crashed” = “it’s crashed,” etc. “It’s” is a contraction for “it is” or “it has.” “It’s” certainly _is not_ a contraction of “it was,” though. You cannot say \*“it’s here last night.” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/38 "2010-07-09T06:18:09Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > What **acsenray** said. “Has” is not the present perfect of “to be”; it’s the third person singular present of “to have.” > > The third person singular present perfect of “to be” is “has been,” just as the 3p.s.p.p. of “to run” is “has run” or of “to eat” is “has eaten,” and likewise for any other verb. > > And you can use “it’s” for any of them: “it has run off” = “it’s run off,” “it has eaten its dinner” = “it’s eaten its dinner;” “it has crashed” = “it’s crashed,” etc. “It’s” is a contraction for “it is” or “it has.” > > “It’s” certainly _is not_ a contraction of “it was,” though. You cannot say \*“it’s here last night.” Not to mention that the _ **perfect** _ is not a tense but an _aspect_. Especially in English. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/39 "2010-07-09T11:43:38Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Its. If it ain’t “it is,” it’s its. True, but I prefer the following: When is it its? When it isn’t it is. When is it it’s? When it is it is. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880/40 "2010-07-09T14:03:56Z")
It’s in the place of “it has” or John’s in the place of “John has” may be common usuage, but it’s lazy English and technically improper (particularly the latter use). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-a-friendly-pitting-apostrophes-and-plurals/545880.md?page=3)