# This is awful. Absolutely horrifying. Is it too late? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986 "2002-03-13T03:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/1 "2002-03-13T03:57:17Z")
Ok, the first two links below contain distubing, graphic images. Please do not view if you do not want to see this kind of thing. > [@](#): > > Eleven photographs taken by an amateur photographer from his window in east Jerusalem have caused outrage in the Arabic media, which allege they show the summary execution of a Palestinian militant. > [@](#): > > The AFP news agency - which published the graphic, but inconclusive images below - said it had received the testimonies of more than 10 eyewitnesses, who said the man was shot half-an-hour after his arrest when he was completely subdued. this is from [bbc news](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1867000/1867726.stm) and more of the images are [here](http://www.fuckedeconomy.ca/~rasmus/Crime_2.jpg) The assertions re: the implications of these photographs are not facts, but _if_ they are true, this proves, to me anyway, _beyond any possible doubt_ that there are two sides in the wrong here. Kofi Annan today said: > [@](#): > > To the Israelis I say: You have the right to live in peace and security within secure internationally recognised borders. But you must end the illegal occupation. More urgently you must stop the bombing of civilian areas, the assassinations, the unnecessary use of lethal force, the demolitions and the daily humiliation of ordinary Palestinians. and > [@](#): > > Today more than ever, you must recognise that security and political settlement are indivisible. One cannot exist without the other. Many of your friends stand ready to support you if you seize this opportunity [bbc](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1869000/1869851.stm) Should the rest of the world / united nations be doing more to stop this conflict? Should there be peacekeepers there? Is this confict out of control? Is it too late? Will this make peace impossible? p.s. does anyone have more info on the pictures? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/2 "2002-03-13T04:16:06Z")
Okay, first of all, this guy was apparently a suicide bomber. Second, it’s no secret that Israel has been targetting and assassinating Palestinian terrorist leaders. So IF they did this, it wouldn’t surprise me all that much, especially if that was a bomb strapped to him. They may have been strip-searching him, saw the explosives, and said “Hell with this. I’m not going to risk my life.” Or perhaps the man struggled and tried to reach for a detonator. Pretty tough to tell from the pictures. There’s not really enough information to tell what happened. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/3 "2002-03-13T04:21:26Z")
> [@](#): > > The assertions re: the implications of these photographs are not facts, but _if_ they are true, this proves, to me anyway, _beyond any possible doubt_ that there are two sides in the wrong here. Sure does look that way, doesn’t it? On the one hand, we have a dead suicide bomber, which is clearly a good thing. On the other hand, we have an extrajudicial execution, which is clearly a bad thing. Looks like a tie to me. Let’s throw this sucker into overtime and see if either side can demonstrate an awareness that this is not merely the 1300s with better weaponry. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/4 "2002-03-13T04:31:47Z")
Ya gotta love the caption on the last frame (lower left side) on the second link: > [@](#): > > They brought now the robot to fake to the public that he is a suicide bomber. Hmmm… just the conclusion that I would have reached, especially since this appears to be a secretly recorded video that the frames are taken from. :rolleyes: I’m not sure which “reality” the “extra-judicial execution” claimants are from, but it’s no different from killing a guy that won’t drop his gun when ordered to by the police. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/5 "2002-03-13T05:06:41Z")
Nor am I sure which “reality” the “suicide bomber” is from, longhorn. Jumping to conclusions seems such a silly game, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/6 "2002-03-13T05:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > \*\*Sure does look that way, doesn’t it? On the one hand, we have a dead suicide bomber, which is clearly a good thing. On the other hand, we have an extrajudicial execution, which is clearly a bad thing. \*\* OK, minty, riddle me this: If it is a “dead suicide bomber” (quite plausible, given recent events), is it also an “extrajudicial execution,” or is it killing in self-defense (and defense of lives and property within the blast radius)? On the other hand… if it actually was a shooting in cold blood and a frame-up with the robot (not quite as plausible, IMO), then sure: I’ll grant it was an “extra-judicial execution.” ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Willy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sweet\_Willy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Willy)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/7 "2002-03-13T05:32:55Z")
I checked out the photos. A couple show him in his underwear and nothing else. The last one, the one with the robot, there is something around his waist. Is that supposed to be the bomb. God I hope not. It wasn’t there in the earlier photos. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/8 "2002-03-13T07:52:57Z")
This was all over the front pages of the papers here. People are just horrified. By people I mean my western colleagues at work were way more shocked and horrified than my middle eastern colleagues. The latter seem to be becoming increasingly resigned to the situation, and increasingly losing hope. ---
**Author:** ![LokiTheDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@LokiTheDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LokiTheDog)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/9 "2002-03-13T08:02:22Z")
Zooming in close shows that to be his arm, not a bomb in the sixth frame of the second link. The robot is dragging away his coat, where the bomb presumably is. In the fourth frame, the cop standing over him appears to be putting handcuffs on, something happens in between then and the next frame that we can’t see. But the guy is now dead, and he has no cuffs. Depending on your bias you could say that he made a move for the detonator cause he knew he couldn’t do it with the cuffs on and the security forces shot him when he did, or he was murdered. Ten eyewitnesses claim he was completely subdued half an hour before he was shot, yet the photographer never got a photo of him in cuffs? In my opinion, either the photographer didn’t take the important photos… the actual fatal shot… or the people pushing this story left them out because they didn’t support their claims of murder. The people making the claim of murder have the burden of proving it. The photos don’t do that, and the eyewitnesses reports don’t jibe with the photos. ---
**Author:** ![LokiTheDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6f9a4e/32.png) [@LokiTheDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LokiTheDog)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/10 "2002-03-13T08:25:34Z")
Why did so much time pass between the fourth and fifth frames? The scene is completely empty except for the body. If the photographer witnessed the man being murdered surely he would have taken another photo with the culprits in scene. Could it be that not much time passed after all, but the security forces got the hell away from him fast once the man made a suicide/murder/terrorism attempt? Instinct could have you pop a round in the head and then take cover in a fraction of a second. Seems to me that if they wanted him dead they would have carted him off and done it in a controlled environment after interrogation, not in the middle of the street. Again, I don’t see enough evidence to support a cold blooded murder. I do see a whole Hell of a lot of leading statements accompanying the photos. Was the guy shooting in the air to scare off eyewitnesses? or just scanning the nearby buildings for security reasons? The others are ready to execute him? or just training their weapons on him in case he tries to blow himself up? C’mon, how can any report be taken seriously when it tries so hard to sway opinion instead of report facts. The OP doesn’t provide any information about the source for the second link, presumably because it leads to a site called www.fuckedeconomy.ca …sounds real reputable ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/11 "2002-03-13T17:24:24Z")
Eh, I don’t see any reason to discount the veracity of the photos just because it was posted at a website called [http://www.fuckedeconomy.ca/](http://www.fuckedeconomy.ca/) It looks to me like it’s just a place to post articles and photos. There’s a message board listed, but the link isn’t enabled. I went and looked at some more of “Rasmus’s” [articles and photos,](http://www.fuckedeconomy.ca/~rasmus/) and they’re all pretty much middle-of-the-road politics/economy stuff. In other words, his choice of articles to post on this BBS doesn’t make him sound like a conspiracy theorist raving loony, just a person with an interest in what you might call the “inequities” of politics and the business world. That said, as to whether the photos are real, well, I live in a world in which anybody with a few bucks to spend can buy Adobe Photoshop and spend hours of fun putting himself into production stills of Lord of the Rings. Who’s to say that somebody over there didn’t spend the weekend making a few interesting changes in these photos? In other words, I don’t think there’s ever going to be any way to tell whether the photos are real, but if I had to vote, I’d have to go with “carefully manufactured propaganda”. I’m such a cynic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/12 "2002-03-13T18:02:50Z")
So the police shot a handcuffed man, in the middle of the street, in a very hostile neighbourhood, in broad daylight? Please. The JPD may not be the most refined people in the world, and God knows they’ve been under enough pressure lately, but they’re not stupid. ---
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/13 "2002-03-13T19:11:26Z")
The bbc reports that 11 stills were taken, but they only published 5. the other link only has 6. There are still 5 pictures missing. Anybody have info on those missing pictures? They might settle the debate. And the caption under the second last bbc photo says > [@](#): > > This photo appears to belie an official statement saying police only opened fire when Salah refused to remove his overcoat I mean its not unusual for ‘official sources’ to lie for whatever reason, but their statement was obviously made before release of the photos. This makes me lean towards the conclusion that they (the official sources) are hiding something. I think the bbc would have checked the authenticity of the photos before publishing them, (you can usually tell if a photo has been doctored by examining closely) so I accept until its shown otherwise that they are not photoshopped. That still doesn’t clarify the meaning of them though. ---
**Author:** ![Kvallulf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@Kvallulf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kvallulf)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/14 "2002-03-13T20:54:39Z")
The F\*\*\*ed econ site says that this was “camcorded” , if so why just send stills? Where is the tape?😕 ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/15 "2002-03-13T21:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Im a Loser_ > The assertions re: the implications of these photographs are not facts, but if they are true, this proves, to me anyway, beyond any possible doubt that there are two sides in the wrong here. I think it’s been pretty obvious all along that there’s plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the conflict. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LokiTheDog \* > Zooming in close shows that to be his arm, not a bomb in the sixth frame of the second link. The robot is dragging away his coat, where the bomb presumably is. In the fourth frame, the cop standing over him appears to be putting handcuffs on, something happens in between then and the next frame that we can’t see. But the guy is now dead, and he has no cuffs. Depending on your bias you could say that he made a move for the detonator cause he knew he couldn’t do it with the cuffs on and the security forces shot him when he did, or he was murdered. I don’t see that. In the fifth and sixth frames, he is clearly handcuffed. There is a dark line visible across his left wrist, and his left arm is stretched across his back at an unnatural angle. > [@](#): > > Ten eyewitnesses claim he was completely subdued half an hour before he was shot, yet the photographer never got a photo of him in cuffs? Unfortunately, not enough information is given. The article only says he was subdued. It doesn’t say if he was actually handcuffed for half an hour. In the fourth picture, he appears to be subdued with the police putting cuffs on. Then in the fifth picture, he appears to be dead. The half hour that elapsed may refer to the time when they had him in custody, but hadn’t cuffed him yet. We just don’t know without more information. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/16 "2002-03-13T22:23:29Z")
Personally, I feel good anytime a suiside bomber is summarily executed. If he was a suiside bomber, the bastard intended to kill plenty of other people (as many as he could presumably), and there is no debate about that. He intended to kill innocent people, probably those he did not even know. He intended to give no warning, and no mercy. Screw him, and any roghts he had. He meant to blow up with the bomb, so the police helped him along a bit. Glad he’s dead, glad he didn’t take anyone with him. Sorry, just my gut reaction, probably not much good for a GD thread, but… ---
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/17 "2002-03-13T23:43:47Z")
blowero > [@](#): > > I think it’s been pretty obvious all along that there’s plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the conflict Yeah, to me too. But way too many people (here and elsewhere) have argued that the only ones in the wrong are the suicide bombers. But anyway, tradesilicon, > [@](#): > > Screw him, and any roghts he had. I’ll assume you meant rights, and respond by saying rights of the guilty must be preserved if only so they can be equally applied to the innocent. If you want peace, it requires law and order, which must be applied across the board. If rights apply only to some, they are no longer rights, but priveleges. If this guy was a suicide bomber (which I’m convinced of) then he should have been arrested, tried, convicted, and forced to live (against his wishes) in jail, for the rest of his natural life. I’m sure thats much more punishment than death for someone suicidal. * * * > [@](#): > > According to Jerusalem police spokesman Kobi Zarhad, Salah “was wearing an explosive belt on his stomach and detonator on his chest”. > > “This person was killed because he could not be subdued. It is only after he was dead that we were able to remove the (explosive) belt,” he added. > > According to Israeli security sources, Salah was wearing a large overcoat and policemen opened fire when he refused to take it off. ``` from ``` [new.com.au](http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,3927974%255E19201,00.html) Its pretty obvious from picture #4 that the jerusalem police are lying. - the detonator was on his chest, his hands cuffed behind his back… even if you accept israel’s assanination policy, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? And why is no media source on this side of the atlantic carrying this story, if even to debunk it? ---
**Author:** ![APB9999](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB9999](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB9999)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/18 "2002-03-14T00:43:51Z")
I have absolutely no trouble at all believing the Israeli police would perform a summary execution, especially if they found a bomb on the guy. And no, I don’t think it’s okay for the police to perform summary executions, even if the guy is a terrorist. Unless he is a direct threat to someone’s life, people in police custody should not be killed by them - hey, call me old-fashioned. That said, I don’t think we can tell from the stills exactly what happened. Clearly the alleged bomber was down to his skivvies when shot, and I’m inclined to believe he was cuffed, too, given the position of his arms after death. It’s hard to imagine the arms ending up like that otherwise, and this seems pretty significant to me. The fact that the cuffs were then removed is not sign of a coverup, though, it could just be a sign that some cop wanted his cuffs back and they weren’t serving any more purpose where they were. It also looks to me like the cops didn’t start out intending to go shoot someone. They look like they’re making an arrest, but if they then discovered a bomb, or suspected there was a bomb, I can understand how their emotions may have led to, shall we say, a decreased adherence to traditional police procedures; Israel seems to be like that. That doesn’t make it right, of course. I think this is a not-unlikely interpretation of the photos, though not necessarily the only one. ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/19 "2002-03-14T00:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by im\_a\_loser \* > \*\*Its pretty obvious from picture #4 that the jerusalem police are lying. - the detonator was on his chest, his hands cuffed behind his back… even if you accept israel’s assanination policy, WHAT ARE THEY HIDING? \*\* What we have here are 6 pictures (each capturing a moment from one viewpoint) over the span of at least half an hour. There is a lot that is not being revealed by the photographer. Where is the tape or other pictures that fill in some of the _ **enormous** _ gaps in the coverage? In picture #4, I don’t see his arms (as in #5 & 6), so I can’t say that his hands are cuffed behind his back. I can’t see his chest, or much else other than most of his rear torso, his right ass cheek, and the outside and back of his right leg, so I can’t tell if he has a real bomb on him, a fake bomb or a tattoo on his forehead saying in Arabic: “Hi, I’m a suicide bomber.” In other words, nothing is pretty obvious from picture #4. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by im\_a\_loser \* > \*\*And why is no media source on this side of the atlantic carrying this story, if even to debunk it? > \*\* Are police shootings of suspects normally covered in the world press? I know it makes local news when the cops have to shoot someone that won’t drop a gun, or lunge with a knife, etc., but unless there are questionable circumstances (i.e. Diallo in NYC) they don’t even make state-wide news, let alone become a world-wide story. ---
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/20 "2002-03-14T08:18:14Z")
TXLonghorn > [@](#): > > Are police shootings of suspects normally covered in the world press? I know it makes local news when the cops have to shoot someone that won’t drop a gun, or lunge with a knife, etc., but unless there are questionable circumstances (i.e. Diallo in NYC) they don’t even make state-wide news, let alone become a world-wide story Well, the israeli/palestinian confict itself is intl news, with the egregious tactics of palestinians getting a shitload of coverage; and the circumstances of this incident are very questionable. Here is one eyewitness account of what happened: > [@](#): > > On Friday, 8 March 2002, at 4 p.m., I heard noises outside the building where I live, which is Project 3 of the Nusseibeh Buildings in Beit Hanina. I looked out of the window that overlooks the road in front of the building; the road is only about 8 meters away. I saw how a military jeep stopped the two men. One of them was a guy I know; his name is Randy Audi; he is from Beit Hanina. I did not know the other man but I later learnt that his name was Mahmoud Salah. > > Randy was taken at 4.15 p.m. in a military jeep to an unknown destination. Mahmoud was forced to lie flat on his face and had his hands cuffed behind his back. The special [police] unit tore down Mahmoud’s clothes. He was wearing a light navy blue jacket and a yellow shirt and a dark yellow cotton pair of pants. > > I didn’t see any bags with Mahmoud as Israelis claim. I heard how he was questioned about his name and the place of residence. I understood that he was from Nablus and that his name was Mahmoud. There were three members of the special [police] unit surrounding the guy on the ground; they were dressed in dark gray. One of them placed his foot on the guy’s head and another was holding his feet and a third was sitting on his knees pointing a gun at him from a distance of approximately 1.5 -2 meters. > > At around 4.30 p.m., the third member shot the guy eight or nine times in the head. Then they left the place and left the guy bleeding. The guy was trying to move and to stand up. At around 5.15 p.m. he stopped moving. > > At around 5.20 p.m. Israeli police brought a robot, which drew a black belt. The strange thing is that I did not see that belt when the police tore down the guy’s clothes before he was killed. [source](http://www.lawsociety.org/Press/Preleases/2002/March/mar12.html) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986.md?page=2)