# This is awful. Absolutely horrifying. Is it too late? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 13, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986 "2002-03-13T03:57:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monster104](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Monster104](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monster104)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/21 "2002-03-14T09:29:37Z")
> [@](#): > > At around 4.30 p.m., the third member shot the guy eight or nine times in the head. Then they left the place and left the guy bleeding. The guy was trying to move and to stand up. At around 5.15 p.m. he stopped moving. Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/22 "2002-03-14T15:00:58Z")
What’s that “Hmmm…” for? Don’t you think that someone could survive being shot in the head 8 or 9 times for 45 minutes, while not losing conscienceness? Hmmmm… neither do I. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/23 "2002-03-14T15:03:50Z")
So _that’s_ what happened to Rasputin! ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/24 "2002-03-14T15:07:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APB9999 \* > \*\*I have absolutely no trouble at all believing the Israeli police would perform a summary execution, especially if they found a bomb on the guy. And no, I don’t think it’s okay for the police to perform summary executions, even if the guy is a terrorist. Unless he is a direct threat to someone’s life, people in police custody should not be killed by them - hey, call me old-fashioned. > > \*\* And you don’t think a person with a bomb is a “direct threat to someone’s life?” Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/25 "2002-03-14T19:44:46Z")
Personally, I don’t think anyone not in the area of Israel or Palestine has a whole lot of perspective on what’s going on there. Seems to me it’s a war - and lots of things happen in a war that shouldn’t. The thing I find most odd about this situation is this: Bob is a suicide bomber. He’s going to go to the local megaplex and see how many families he can blow to Kingdom Come. So, there he is strolling along when he gets grabbed (for whatever reason) by the Israeli cops. Now, these aren’t guys who are going to just let him go on his way - something happened to make them suspicious. Now, why didn’t he just blow the bomb and at least take out a couple cops? Maybe he was just too focused on his “objective”. Hell if I know. Just seems weird to me. -Meri ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/26 "2002-03-14T19:46:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tradesilicon \* > \*\*Personally, I feel good anytime a suiside bomber is summarily executed. If he was a suiside bomber, the bastard intended to kill plenty of other people (as many as he could presumably), and there is no debate about that. He intended to kill innocent people, probably those he did not even know. He intended to give no warning, and no mercy. Screw him, and any roghts he had. He meant to blow up with the bomb, so the police helped him along a bit. Glad he’s dead, glad he didn’t take anyone with him. > > Sorry, just my gut reaction, probably not much good for a GD thread, but… \*\* You obviously feel very strongly about this, but let me ask you a question. Do you think a suicide bomber is inherently less moral than someone who merely pushes a button to launch a missile? What we have is a war going on - Isreal possesses sophisticated weaponry, mainly due to U.S. support. Palestine does not. What happens is, the Palestinians detonate a bomb somewhere, and Isreal responds by lobbing missiles back at them. They are fighting as suicide bombers because that is the only means available to them. Let me be very clear that I am not defending ANYONE. Like I said before, I think there’s plenty of blame to go around. But you cannot condemn one side of the conflict for fighting with the only means available to them, while holding the other side blameless only because they happen to have more gadgets that will kill people without also killing the one who pushed the button. You say he intended to kill innocent people, probably those he did not even know, and intended to give no warning, and no mercy. Does an Isreali soldier who launches a missile give any warning, or mercy? Do they kill innocent people? War is wrong, period. A bomb strapped to a person is not MORE wrong than a bomb attached to a missile. ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/27 "2002-03-14T21:27:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\* > > Do you think a suicide bomber is inherently less moral than someone who merely pushes a button to launch a missile? What we have is a war going on - Isreal possesses sophisticated weaponry, mainly due to U.S. support. Palestine does not. \*\* An excellent point. That has been debated at great length, but here’s my take: It all depends on what side you are on. Now, principles should be objective, but I am heavily invested emotionally in this issue, so I will concede that objectivity is lost quickly. But I think there is a valid distiction, in this: The Israeli amry is protecting the citizens of Israel. They do not seek out innocents and kill them at random. They do end up killing innocents, again, not intentionally, and this is a tragedy no less than dead Israelis. The distiction I see (again, this has been heavily debated, but…) the suiside bombers are going in fully intending to take out as many innocent civillians as they can, and the Israeli army is trying to get the people who enabled the attacks on their citizens. I would not even try to justify a delibarate attempt to kill civillians on the part of the army. But remember, they have been living with this for many years, with very little support for ANY action they take from the outside world. The Palestinian people do not deserve to have their lives destroyed, neither do the Israelis. But if leadership do not change their tactics on both sides there is no peace in sight. At the same time, suicide bombers will not make Israel more likely to play nice. I know that might does not make right, but I back wholeheartedly any attemps to destroy terrorist organizations, including assasinating their leaders, if they are attacking innocents in the population. Pushing a button to send a bomb does not make you immune from being called a murderer, I don’t agree that the Israeli Army is commiting murder while trying to protect their citizens. ---
**Author:** ![im\_a\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/898d66/32.png) [@im\_a\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/im_a_loser)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/28 "2002-03-14T21:47:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _eyewitness_At around 5.20 p.m. Israeli police brought a robot, which drew a black belt. The strange thing is that I did not see that belt when the police tore down the guy’s clothes before he was killed. > [@](#): > > _from news.com.au (link posted above)_“Members of the regular police were, from the start, clearly disagreeing with the members of the special units who executed Salah and were repeating in Hebrew: ‘Let’s kill him!’,” Waari said. These are the parts that have me worried most. I know eyewitness accounts can be extremely unreliable, but _what if_ these eyewitnesses are giving an accurate account? The assertions that this alleged suicide bomber was not in fact a suicide bomber seems to me to need more info to solve - (english info on this event is sketchy… lots of arabic news, but I can’t read it) although an anonymous call to AFP claimed he was on his way to carry out an attack, so… ---
**Author:** ![tradesilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@tradesilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tradesilicon)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/29 "2002-03-14T21:51:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by im\_a\_loser \* > \*\*blowero > > But anyway, tradesilicon, > I’ll assume you meant rights, and respond by saying rights of the guilty must be preserved if only so they can be equally applied to the innocent. If you want peace, it requires law and order, which must be applied across the board. If rights apply only to some, they are no longer rights, but priveleges. Yes, thanks, I often make spelling errors, but I’m trying hard to improve. Rights of the guitly should be preserved. (What are the rights of a suiside bomber in Israel? I’m not sure, but their due process may be different from ours). In that instance, I truly stop caring about his rights, especially since he expected to be dead. Another point - to all those saying that the army would have no problem executing the guy - don’t you think they are interested in getting as much information out of him first? I find it difficult to believe that they would not take him into custody first and get every bit they could before any execution. I believe their intelligence service is known for being able to extract information. No, I don’t the execution theory, even though I support it. Perhaps, if it was an emational decision on the part of an individual soldier, but not ordered by any means. Also, the order of the photos as displayed means nothign - you can arrange photos in any order you wish. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/30 "2002-03-14T22:11:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Does an Isreali soldier who launches a missile give any warning, No the Israeli soldier never gives warning, in the numerous cases where warning was given it was issued by officials before the soldier was oked to press his button. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986/31 "2002-03-14T22:26:05Z")
These pictures, which I originally saw on either BBC or CNN two days ago, are not very clear, and eyewitness accounts that tell of a man being shot in the head 8 times and not dying for half an hour are a bit dodgy. However, that is not to say that the Police did not execute this man. What you have fallen victim of is a thing called Propaganda. The purpose of Propaganda is to use some kind of emotional string to play you like a puppet while only providing you with partial information. Now, Israel and Palestine are at war. War is by definition a violent and terrifying thing, and for the most part, the people of the world at least pay lipservice to wanting it to end unilaterally across the globe. In war people commit atrocities on both sides, however, some sides choose to minimize the atrocities they perform while at the same time performing the function of protecting themselves. This is just such a case. The Amadou Diallo case in NYC was given as an example, and it was an example I was going to give. The NYPD has a recent history of going overboard with it’s tactics, however, this does not make the NYC government an iredeemably corrupt entity. It does not reflect on the country as a whole either, as the OP was trying to color an entire nation based upon one incident. So even if the pictures and the eyewitnesses are telling the truth 100% without error, that still does not make the Israeli position any less viable and does not make the Israelis as a whole cold blooded murderers. They are at war, and bad people get away with doing bad things in war, regardless of the side they are on. It is when the government as a whole sanctions this sort of behavior as the accepted form of governance that we must look at what they do, and Israel most clearly does not. Look at the case of Baruch Goldstein where the IDF bulldozed his memorial because they did not think that it was appropriate to celebrate a man who walked into a mosque and killed dozens of people while they were worshipping. In otherwords, they condemned terrorism perpetrated against Palestinians by an Israeli. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-awful-absolutely-horrifying-is-it-too-late/97986.md?page=1)