# This is beyond insane (proposed Ugandan bill regarding homosexuals) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 25, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899 "2009-11-25T13:48:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/1 "2009-11-25T13:48:46Z")
Take a deep breath and then look at [this article](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/ugandas-anti-gay-bill-causes-commonwealth-uproar/article1376503/) from the Globe and Mail (a Canadian newspaper). Nothing I write here can prepare you for it. What is described therein is beyond insane. Uganda (and many other countries supporting Uganda on this) have no shortage of _real_ problems - disease, poverty, tyranny, . . . Yet _this_ is what commands their attention. The death sentence for homosexuals? Jail time for failing to inform police about a homosexual? And jail time, too, for even defending the rights, or attempting to defend the rights, of homosexuals. I wish this was just a bad joke. Alas it is not. And it is beyond insane. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/2 "2009-11-25T14:08:17Z")
I apologize. In my upset, I mistakenly said,“death sentence for homosexuals”. :o In fact, it’s _only_ life imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/3 "2009-11-25T14:16:13Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > I apologize. In my upset, I mistakenly said,“death sentence for homosexuals”. :o > > In fact, it’s _only_ life imprisonment. Well, actually the proposed bill apparently mandates death for ‘aggravated homosexuality’, which, according to the article, takes place if one party has the HIV virus. Anyway, utterly stupid and disgusting. The proposed bill and its supporters, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/4 "2009-11-25T14:37:40Z")
I can’t access the article from here; which countries are supporting it? I’ve heard nothing but condemnation for the law, even from groups in the US who are normally not supportive of homosexuality (a number of churches, for example). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/5 "2009-11-25T14:46:36Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Uganda (and many other countries supporting Uganda on this) have no shortage of _real_ problems - disease, poverty, tyranny, . . . Yet _this_ is what commands their attention. Sticking it to the fags amounts to 50% of the platform of one of the USA’s two major political parties. So, here in the USA, sticking it to the fags (not like THAT!) amounts to about 25% of our politics. The reason we’re not tying their hands and dropping them into acid baptismals is because people like Phred aren’t in charge. Oh look, **Humper** , someone else who has beliefs and sticks to them! I must be scared of the power of his reason as well! -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Laudenum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Laudenum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laudenum)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/6 "2009-11-25T14:54:58Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Well, actually the proposed bill apparently mandates death for ‘aggravated homosexuality’, which, according to the article, takes place if one party has the HIV virus. > > Anyway, utterly stupid and disgusting. The proposed bill and its supporters, that is. Also (from memory of another article) if the ‘victim’ is disabled or young. EDIT: [BBC NEWS | Africa | Uganda MP urges death for gay sex](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8308912.stm) under 18, disabled, or HIV positive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/7 "2009-11-25T15:01:31Z")
Democracy in action ! This bill was introduced by a backbencher , not the government. Reminds me of the Afghan rape bill. Power to the People ! Be careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/8 "2009-11-25T15:23:19Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > Uganda (and many other countries supporting Uganda on this) have no shortage of _real_ problems - disease, poverty, tyranny, . . . Yet _this_ is what commands their attention. Well duh, if they didn’t have homosexuals in their society then god would stop punishing them with the rest of the stuff. This kills so many problems in one go. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/9 "2009-11-25T15:27:21Z")
It’s not uncommon, sadly, in undeveloped countries that are dictatorships, to find some scape-goat or apply the “devil theory” of history/economics. If the population can be focused on some “devil,” then they won’t notice the lack of progress, the appalling poverty, the lack of infrastructure, way the fat cats get richer, etc. This is visible in the oil-rich countries – countries like Iraq and Iran that have nothing to do with the Palestinian refugees, but make Israel into the devil causing all their internal problems. It’s sad, but even worse is that such distractions actually WORK, and the populace does NOT rise up in open rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/10 "2009-11-25T15:28:03Z")
This bill is one of the many efforts of the conservative, evangelical, Christian, American political organization known as the “The Family.” [Read more about them here](http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799) and [here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516). Their roster includes several prominet US senators and representaves including Chuck Grassley (R., Iowa); James Inhofe (R., Oklahoma); Tom Coburn (R., Oklahoma); John Thune (R., South Dakota); Mike Enzi (R., Wyoming); and John Ensign (R., Nevada). Go God! ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/11 "2009-11-25T15:43:04Z")
NOT THAT THIS EXCUSES IT IN ANY WAY, but it is useful to understand the different ways that different cultures view homosexuality. I absolutely condemn this law in the strongest terms. But when fighting against this kind of evil, it may be useful to understand the origin of the evil. I have no idea what goes on in Uganda, but in Cameroon, homosexuality was a complicated subject. Basically, people noticed that all the gay people they saw were rich. Obviously, this is because only the rich could afford to go against social norms in a public way. But Cameroonian people didn’t see that. They just saw that they were rich. And how does one get rich in a country that is mostly very, very, very poor? Witchcraft. Most Cameroonian rich people were strongly suspected of being involved in some kind of witchcraft. How else could they afford private jets when normal people were scraping by for food? It was the only explanation people could come up with for the massive inequalities they saw in their country. And so the belief formed that all gay people were involved in secret witchcraft societies. Specifically, the belief was that these societies required you to kill and eat a family member, preferably a young one. In exchange, you get worldly riches. Being gay was also considered a part of the cult activities. People were very upset about these kinds of cults flourishing in their communities. And so they harbored a lot of ill will towards gay people. The absolute sincerity of these beliefs was illustrated to me when one of my female students came to me with a problem. She had realized she was a lesbian. Since childhood, she’d had erotic dreams about women. Whenever she masturbated, she thought about women. She had no desire for men, but strong desires towards women. This idea worried her a lot. She’d visited clerics from Islam, Christianity and the local religions. Nobody could cure her of it. So she asked me for advice. I spent a good afternoon giving her advice. I told her about our views of homosexuality, and how lesbians in America could live fairly normal lives, even having children. I told her a bit about the gay communities in Cameroon’s larger cities, and helped advise her about how she could get out there. I gave her advice for dealing with her family’s constant attempts to arrange a marriage for her. In the end, she was greatly relieved. She’d never heard the idea that it might be normal before. She was relieved that she had at least a small prospect of a happy life, and she began to accept herself more. And after so many hours of talking, she said… “You know, I think it might not be true that all gay people are part of secret death cults.” :smack: I’m not sure if they hold beliefs like this in Uganda, but if they do, these kinds of beliefs are very real. It’s hard to understand ignorance this massive, but it exists. If a law like this passed in Cameroon, it would probably be because they genuinely truly believed in these death cults, not simply out of hate. There is A LOT of ignorance to fight in this world. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/12 "2009-11-25T15:46:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > There is A LOT of ignorance to fight in this world. Or take advantage of, depending on your agenda. ---
**Author:** ![CircleofWillis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/13 "2009-11-25T15:50:58Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > This bill is one of the many efforts of the conservative, evangelical, Christian, American political organization known as the “The Family.” [Read more about them here](http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799) and [here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516). Their roster includes several prominet US senators and representaves including Chuck Grassley (R., Iowa); James Inhofe (R., Oklahoma); Tom Coburn (R., Oklahoma); John Thune (R., South Dakota); Mike Enzi (R., Wyoming); and John Ensign (R., Nevada). Go God! That explains why it hasn’t been denounced by the right wing media ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/14 "2009-11-25T15:59:35Z")
> [@CircleofWillis](#): > > That explains why it hasn’t been denounced by the right wing media Well, that and the fact that it falls neatly into the category labelled “news” which tends to intersect with what the “right wing media” reports only when it otherwise serves the agenda. Were a Ugandan bodyembled to condem an old person to death for being old, Glenn Beck would have field day leading us down the rosie path to Americadeath panels by way of the president’s African roots. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/15 "2009-11-25T16:04:29Z")
> [@](#): > > It requires the death penalty for “aggravated homosexuality” – defined as any sexual act between gays or lesbians in which one person has the HIV virus. Right. Because lesbians who exclusively sleep with other women (and aren’t raped by men) are such a high risk group. Sorry, sorry, why I am I even questioning this shit for a grain of truth or logic? This makes me sick. I have several friends in Uganda right now (one’s a gay guy). AFAIK they pretty much stick to their village and the school and hospital they’re helping renovate and run, but I still worry for them. Two have already been back and forth, and while they love the kids they work with and speak with a lot of enthusiasm and hope when it comes to women’s rights and self-sustaining food production and export-friendly businesses, AIDS babies and raped/molested kids also seem to be the norm. What a quagmire. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/16 "2009-11-25T16:14:17Z")
I would have to say that this ‘Family’, if it is supporting horrors like this Ugandan bill, is more evil than that other family, the Mafia. At least the Mafia just wants money, and leaves one’s private life alone. Time for the Canadian parliamant to declare that oppression because of sexual orientatioon is a legitimate reason for taking refuge in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/17 "2009-11-25T16:15:25Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > This bill is one of the many efforts of the conservative, evangelical, Christian, American political organization known as the “The Family.” [Read more about them here](http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secret-Fundamentalism-Heart-American/dp/0060559799) and [here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=120746516). Their roster includes several prominet US senators and representaves including Chuck Grassley (R., Iowa); James Inhofe (R., Oklahoma); Tom Coburn (R., Oklahoma); John Thune (R., South Dakota); Mike Enzi (R., Wyoming); and John Ensign (R., Nevada). Go God! Long articles. Can you quote the sections that show this bill is linked to that group? I scanned the NPR article quickly, but didn’t see anything specific. Maybe I missed it. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/18 "2009-11-25T16:25:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Long articles. Can you quote the sections that show this bill is linked to that group? I scanned the NPR article quickly, but didn’t see anything specific. Maybe I missed it. Podcast (on the second linked page - it’s free) beginning at the 20 minute mark and continuing for a bit thereafter, punchline right about 22 minutes ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/19 "2009-11-25T16:29:01Z")
Here’s a link. …Jeff Sharlet, the author of The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power, was interviewed yesterday on NPR’s Fresh Air with Terry Gross… GROSS: So you’re reporting the story for the first time today, and you found this story - this direct connection between The Family and the proposed legislation by following the money? Mr. SHARLET: Yes, it’s - I always say that the family is secretive, but not secret. You can go and look at 990s, tax forms and follow the money through these organizations that The Family describe as invisible. But you go and you look. You follow that money. You look at their archives. You do interviews where you can. It’s not so invisible anymore. So that’s how working with some research colleagues we discovered that David Bahati, the man behind this legislation, is really deeply, deeply involved in The Family’s work in Uganda [“the organizer of their American-funded leadership program”], that the ethics minister of Uganda, Museveni’s kind of right hand man, a guy named Nsaba Buturo, is also helping to organize The Family’s National Prayer Breakfast. And here’s a guy who has been the main force for this Anti-Homosexuality Act in Uganda’s executive office and has been very vocal about what he’s doing, and in a rather extreme and hateful way. But these guys are not so much under the influence of The Family. They are, in Uganda, The Family. … GROSS: Now what about the president of Uganda, President Museveni? Does he have any connections to The Family? Mr. SHARLET: …The Family identified [him] back in 1986 as a key man for Africa. They wanted to steer him away from neutrality or leftist sympathies and bring him into conservative American alliances, and they were able to do so… … Here’s the link where I found the full article and the link to the NPR interview. [http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/news\_reports/the\_familys\_role\_in\_writing\_th.html?utm\_source=feedburner&utm\_medium=feed&utm\_campaign=Feed%3A+episcopalcafe%2Flead+%28The+Lead%29](http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/news_reports/the_familys_role_in_writing_th.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+episcopalcafe%2Flead+%28The+Lead%29) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899/20 "2009-11-25T16:30:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Long articles. Can you quote the sections that show this bill is linked to that group? I scanned the NPR article quickly, but didn’t see anything specific. Maybe I missed it. It details their support for and apparently corrupt links with the current President whose government is allowing a private member’s bill to proceed and members of that government are praising it. > [@](#): > > Here’s how it can work: Dennis Bakke, former CEO of AES, the largest independent power producer in the world, and a Family insider, took the occasion of the 1997 Prayer Breakfast to invite Ugandan president Yoweri Museveni, the Family’s “key man” in Africa, to a private dinner at a mansion, just up the block from the Family’s Arlington headquarters. > > Bakke, the author of a popular business book titled Joy at Work, has long preached an ethic of social responsibility inspired by his evangelical faith and his free-market convictions: > > “I am trying to sell a way of life,” he has said. “I am a cultural imperialist.” That’s a phrase he uses to be provocative; he believes that his Jesus is so universal that everyone wants Him. > > And, apparently, His business opportunities: Bakke was one of the pioneer thinkers of energy deregulation, the laissez-faire fever dream that culminated in the meltdown of Enron. > > But there was other, less-noticed fallout, such as a no-bid deal Bakke made with Museveni, the result of a relationship that began at the 1997 Prayer Breakfast, for a $500-million dam close to the source of the White N—e – in waters considered sacred by Uganda’s 2.5-million–strong Busoga minority. AES announced that the Busoga had agreed to “relocate” the spirits of their dead. > > They weren’t the only ones opposed; first environmentalists (Museveni had one American arrested and deported) and then even other foreign investors revolted against a project that seemed like it might actually increase the price of power for the poor. Bakke didn’t worry. > > “We don’t go away,” he declared. He dispatched a young man named Christian Wright, the son of one of the Prayer Breakfast’s organizers, to be AES’s in- country liaison to Museveni; > > Wright was later accused of authorizing at least $400,000 in bribes. He claimed his signature had been forged. If the Ugandan system is anything like the UK then a private member’s bill can only get considered if the government makes slots for it in parliamentary timetables. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-beyond-insane-proposed-ugandan-bill-regarding-homosexuals/518899.md?page=2)