# This is Boehner's shutdown **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261 "2013-10-03T12:06:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/81 "2013-10-06T13:39:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > It’s a good thing the White House will never listen to that advice. Boehner is the most powerful Republican of all of them. He holds POWER. Much like Queen Elizabeth, Boehner has some power but would lose it if he actually used the power. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/82 "2013-10-06T14:31:31Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Much like Queen Elizabeth, Boehner has some power but would lose it if he actually used the power. If you mean lose a challenge to the Speakership from within the Party, that is surely possible but I don’t see it as likely. I just can’t find an upside for the non-Tea Party majority in the Republican Caucus to be allowing the 50 or less extremist run the show. I understand about the Tea Party big donor money financing primary challenges to GOP moderate incumbents and all that, but appeaseing these fanatics and a lot of their baseless fear mongering and hysteria their noisy media drums up is taking a bigger toll on moderate conservatism than putting up a red line when they lie and dusturb the facts about what they emotionslly oppose. and fighting them head on when every time cross that line. It is called telling the truth. Boehner would be in much better shape if he told the truth. There is still time for Boehner to tell the truth and stand his ground on it. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/83 "2013-10-06T14:40:48Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you mean lose a challenge to the Speakership from within the Party, that is surely possible but I don’t see it as likely. I just can’t find an upside for the non-Tea Party majority in the Republican Caucus to be allowing the 50 or less extremist run the show. > > I understand about the Tea Party big donor money financing primary challenges to GOP moderate incumbents and all that, but appeaseing these fanatics and a lot of their baseless fear mongering and hysteria their noisy media drums up is taking a bigger toll on moderate conservatism than putting up a red line when they lie and dusturb the facts about what they emotionslly oppose. and fighting them head on when every time cross that line. > > It is called telling the truth. > > Boehner would be in much better shape if he told the truth. > > There is still time for Boehner to tell the truth and stand his ground on it. Too late for him, it is. Fearful of much, he is. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to irrational posturing on Sunday morning talk shows. To the dark side, he has gone. Darth Orange Julius, he is now. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/84 "2013-10-06T15:55:33Z")
Anyone trying to pin this on someone else besides the Republicans is not living in a fact based reality. The Tea Party wing of the GOP and their various funded-by-Koch-money astroturf groups have been planning this for some time. > [@](#): > > [A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Planning](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?hp) > Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups. > > It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/85 "2013-10-06T16:30:43Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Too late for him, it is. Fearful of much, he is. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to irrational posturing on Sunday morning talk shows. To the dark side, he has gone. Darth Orange Julius, he is now. Regarding my Post#82 You are looking more right by the hour. I had not seen Boehner on the talk circuit this morning but this is what I meant by Boehner’s need to begin telling the truth - apparently he’s not ready yet. > [@](#): > > John Boehner Claims He Doesn’t Have Votes For Clean Continuing Resolution Bill > Mollie Reilly The Huffington PostOct 06, 2013 > House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said Sunday that there are not enough votes in the House of Representative to pass a continuing resolution to fund the government without a provision defunding or delaying the Affordable Care Act. . The truth of course is that there are four more Republicans with 200 Dems who would pass a clean resolution right now. So Boehner flat out lied and I wonder if Steffie called him on. We need journalists who are sure enough if their objective facts to call out pols like Boehner when they flat out lie like this. Why not say to Boehner that is not true you are lying. This interview is over until you correct the record and promise to be honest. I will not tolerated flat out audacious lying on my show. So what are you going to do? Right now! You have five seconds to answer and it better be right. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/86 "2013-10-06T17:31:44Z")
That Star Wars analogy was OK, but it could be better. The Dems are in control, so they’d be the Empire. The Death Star is Obamacare, threatening to blow up America with its socialist super laser. The plucky rebels fighting against all odds are the Tea Party. Luke is Cruz, an idealistic hero in over his head trying to do what’s right. Boehner is Han, the cynical rogue who’s only life goal was to follow the money. But even his cold heart has been inspired by Cruz’s bravery. He can’t let Cruz get gunned down in the trench…can he? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/87 "2013-10-06T18:15:17Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > That Star Wars analogy was OK, but it could be better. The Dems are in control, so they’d be the Empire. The Death Star is Obamacare, threatening to blow up America with its socialist super laser. The plucky rebels fighting against all odds are the Tea Party. Luke is Cruz, an idealistic hero in over his head trying to do what’s right. Boehner is Han, the cynical rogue who’s only life goal was to follow the money. But even his cold heart has been inspired by Cruz’s bravery. He can’t let Cruz get gunned down in the trench…can he? I just imagined Cruz whining that he wanted to go down to the Toshi Station to pick up some power converters, and honestly, I feel much better now. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/88 "2013-10-06T22:03:59Z")
I have a scenario I would like open-minded individuals to conptemplate. I am aware this is the Elections forum, but I am trying to elevate the discourse. First pretend Democratic politicians are sentient beings with principles. Now that we have firmly placed this scenario in the realm of fantasy, let us continue. Pretend that Democrats gained control of the House after the invasion of Iraq. The Democratic party was overwhelmed by grassroots opposition to the Iraq war and many “moderate” Democrats were primaried by ideological (shudder) opponents of military conquest. The House was now controlled by Democrats that were either a) anti-invasion ideologues or b) afraid of primary challenges from these folks. Suppose the opposite of the current shutdown takes place over Iraq war funding instead of ACA funding. How would this situation be viewed? I submit that it would be seen as a Noble Stand instead of “hostage taking” or “personal animosity to the sitting president” by a vast majority of SDMB participants. So maybe what many people actually have a problem with is that, contrary to their own views of the ACA, there is a large body of Americans who do not want the ACA. These people sent representatives to the People’s Chamber to stop it. Some other thougts on the shutdown: It is not a shutdown, but a small scale reduction in operations. The idea that the 2012 election settled the debate on the ACA is laughable. Seriously, it makes me laugh. Mitt Romney, of Romneycare fame, represented absolutely no challenge to the ACA in any form. I listened to the debates along with the rest of you. The main point of contention between Mr. Romney and Mr. Obama was whether or not PelosiCare was going to effect Medicare. They were two sides of the same fascist coin on health care. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/89 "2013-10-06T22:18:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have a scenario I would like open-minded individuals to conptemplate. I am aware this is the Elections forum, but I am trying to elevate the discourse. > > First pretend Democratic politicians are sentient beings with principles. Now that we have firmly placed this scenario in the realm of fantasy, let us continue. Pretend that Democrats gained control of the House after the invasion of Iraq. The Democratic party was overwhelmed by grassroots opposition to the Iraq war and many “moderate” Democrats were primaried by ideological (shudder) opponents of military conquest. The House was now controlled by Democrats that were either a) anti-invasion ideologues or b) afraid of primary challenges from these folks. > > Suppose the opposite of the current shutdown takes place over Iraq war funding instead of ACA funding. How would this situation be viewed? I submit that it would be seen as a Noble Stand instead of “hostage taking” or “personal animosity to the sitting president” by a vast majority of SDMB participants. > > So maybe what many people actually have a problem with is that, contrary to their own views of the ACA, there is a large body of Americans who do not want the ACA. These people sent representatives to the People’s Chamber to stop it. The president ran with the promise to make the ACA a reality. He was reelected. More people voted for the democrats in the House also, but even with more than a million votes in favor the Democrats got less seats. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/09/house-democrats-got-more-votes-than-house-republicans-yet-boehner-says-hes-got-a-mandate/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/09/house-democrats-got-more-votes-than-house-republicans-yet-boehner-says-hes-got-a-mandate/) > [@](#): > > It can be a bit difficult to tally up the popular vote in House elections because you have to go ballot by ballot, and many incumbents run unopposed. But The Washington Post’s Dan Keating did the work and found that Democrats got 54,301,095 votes while Republicans got 53,822,442. That’s a close election – 48.8%-48.5% --but it’s still a popular vote win for the Democrats. Those precise numbers might change a bit as the count finalizes, but the tally isn’t likely to flip. > > In most states where Republicans controlled redistricting, the Democrats’ share of House seats was far beneath their share of the presidential vote. (Dylan Matthews) > > What saved Boehner’s majority wasn’t the will of the people but the power of redistricting. As my colleague Dylan Matthews showed, Republicans used their control over the redistricting process to great effect, packing Democrats into tighter and tighter districts and managing to restructure races so even a slight loss for Republicans in the popular vote still meant a healthy majority in the House. > > That’s a neat trick, but it’s not a popular mandate, or anything near to it – and Boehner knows it. That’s why his first move after the election was to announce, in a vague-but-important statement, that he was open to some kind of compromise on taxes. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Some other thougts on the shutdown: It is not a shutdown, but a small scale reduction in operations. The idea that the 2012 election settled the debate on the ACA is laughable. Seriously, it makes me laugh. Mitt Romney, of Romneycare fame, represented absolutely no challenge to the ACA in any form. I listened to the debates along with the rest of you. The main point of contention between Mr. Romney and Mr. Obama was whether or not PelosiCare was going to effect Medicare. They were two sides of the same fascist coin on health care. Pelosicare? Now that is really laughable, it is a term coming almost exclusively from extreme right blogs and sources, you really need to do a clean up of your bookmarks. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/90 "2013-10-06T22:28:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The president ran with the promise to make the ACA a reality. He was reelected. Mr. Obama’s 2012 campaign was primitive “share the wealth” rhetoric and letting his money men personally attack Mr. Romney for being awkward and rich. > [@](#): > > More people voted for the democrats in the House also, but even with more than a million votes in favor the Democrats got less seats. What specific claim of mine are you addressing because this seems irrelevent. I stated that a large body of Americans do not want the ACA. Do you dispute that? If so, elaborate. I also stated that these same people sent representatives to the House to stop it. Do you dispute that? If so, elaborate. > [@](#): > > Pelosicare? > > Now that is really laughable, it is a term coming almost exclusively from extreme right blogs and sources, you really need to do a clean up of your bookmarks. Firstly, it is more representative of the truth than the “Obamacare” pejorative used elsehwere in the thread to no objection. Secondly, i used “ACA” throughout my post, you focusing on my single rhetorical flourish illustrates your lack of argument on this point. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/91 "2013-10-06T22:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > The idea that the 2012 election settled the debate on the ACA is laughable. Seriously, it makes me laugh. You’re right, it is laughable, since the truth is that the passage of the ACA settled the debate years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/92 "2013-10-06T22:48:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re right, it is laughable, since the truth is that the passage of the ACA settled the debate years earlier. I guess you would have been an ardent supporter of the Fugitive Slave Act. It was passed! We must all bow down before our Federal Deciders! ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/93 "2013-10-06T22:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I also stated that these same people sent representatives to the House to stop it. And they didn’t have the numbers to do so in the House or Senate and the ACA was validated by the Supreme Court. So tough luck, try harder next time. Holding a budget bill to ransom is not how you repeal legislation. The ACA is fully funded and the rest of the federal budget would be fully funded if Boehner had the balls to bring the budget bill to vote. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/94 "2013-10-06T22:52:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I guess you would have been an ardent supporter of the Fugitive Slave Act. It was passed! We must all bow down before our Federal Deciders! This is an idiotic argument. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/95 "2013-10-06T22:56:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have a scenario I would like open-minded individuals to conptemplate. I am aware this is the Elections forum, but I am trying to elevate the discourse. > > First pretend Democratic politicians are sentient beings with principles. Now that we have firmly placed this scenario in the realm of fantasy, let us continue. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/96 "2013-10-06T22:56:55Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > And they didn’t have the numbers to do so in the House or Senate and the ACA was validated by the Supreme Court. So tough luck, try harder next time. The supreme court said the ACA was good policy? Hmmm… They have the numbers in the House to do precisely what they are doing and it is their constitutional duty to do so. > [@](#): > > Holding a budget bill to ransom is not how you repeal legislation. The ACA is fully funded and the rest of the federal budget would be fully funded if Boehner had the balls to bring the budget bill to vote. Who the hell are you to decide what the representatives of other people are to do. They are acting in full accordance with their constitutional duties. The democratic process, worshipped so much by American statists, has given the power to the Speaker to do what he is doing. So he is doing it, and representing his constituents while he does. He has no obligation, legal or otherwise, to represent anyone else, including \*\*Skip \*\*of SDMB fame. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/97 "2013-10-06T22:58:37Z")
> [@Skip](#): > > This is an idiotic argument. This is an illuminating comment! Maybe you could elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/98 "2013-10-06T22:59:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I am aware this is the Elections forum, but I am trying to elevate the discourse. > > First pretend Democratic politicians are sentient beings with principles. Will Farnaby, ladies and gentlemen, with another fine post from the Dope’s premier libertarian thinker. Sure, it’s stupid and annoying - but what else has he got? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/99 "2013-10-06T22:59:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Mr. Obama’s 2012 campaign was primitive “share the wealth” rhetoric and letting his money men personally attack Mr. Romney for being awkward and rich. Not what I remember from Mr. 47%. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What specific claim of mine are you addressing because this seems irrelevent. I stated that a large body of Americans do not want the ACA. Do you dispute that? If so, elaborate. I also stated that these same people sent representatives to the House to stop it. Do you dispute that? If so, elaborate. The fact that more than 1.4 million voted for the House democrats shows that your say so of “there is a large body of Americans who do not want the ACA. **These people sent representatives to the People’s Chamber to stop it**.” was not completely accurate. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Firstly, it is more representative of the truth than the “Obamacare” pejorative used elsehwere in the thread to no objection. Secondly, i used “ACA” throughout my post, you focusing on my single rhetorical flourish illustrates your lack of argument on this point. Nope, when a shibboleth like that pops up it is really the one bringing it in the one that has a lack of argument, because it is a reheated silly term coming from right wing sources. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/100 "2013-10-06T23:02:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who the hell are you to decide what the representatives of other people are to do. They are acting in full accordance with their constitutional duties. The democratic process, worshipped so much by American statists, has given the power to the Speaker to do what he is doing. So he is doing it, and representing his constituents while he does. He has no obligation, legal or otherwise, to represent anyone else, including \*\*Skip \*\*of SDMB fame. Oh Boehner has the power to do what he’s doing. It’s just idiotic- he’s hurting the Republican party and the country. He and the rest of the GOP have painted themselves into a corner- the Democrats literally can’t give in, because that would be the end of any sort of functioning divided government. The American public overwhelmingly opposes a shutdown for the purpose of delaying/defunding the ACA, and the longer it lasts the more it’s going to hurt the GOP in 2014, not to mention the actual people that are hurting because of it. The ACA has already started- the only way to end it is for a President to get elected who promises to repeal it. If it’s as bad as opponents say it is, this will be easy for the Republicans to do. But it’s not ending until then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261.md?page=6)