# This is Boehner's shutdown **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261 "2013-10-03T12:06:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/141 "2013-10-07T20:51:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > It is a law,. I’m pretty sure that is not a complete thought, but words are hard, i know. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/142 "2013-10-07T20:51:19Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You simply assert that costs will go down with no evidence. Several posters already reported, not on this thread but on the same Elections forum, how the new law is showing the excess costs due to the relative lack of competition in the old system. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16731292&postcount=558](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16731292&postcount=558) > [@What is your ongoing opinion of the Affordable Care Act? (Title Edited)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-is-your-ongoing-opinion-of-the-affordable-care-act-title-edited/647561/560): > > The ‘bronze plan’ is $4214 a year or $351 a month, exactly what I pay now until the subsidy is subtracted. The plan would then be $3709, or 309 a month. > Seems like not that big a deal, right? > But what is most interesting is that the price I pay now for insurance is not the whole cost of my coverage. My employer picks up the rest, like most employers do. The cost of my insurance is actually $17,124.82 a year. > So where did all the money go? What happened to that other $13,000? Elsewhere it was noticed that in one state the plans for people working on their own showed a reduction of more than $700, you bet that a lot of would be entrepreneurs looked at the numbers and decided to stay put in their lousy works, that is BTW called Job Lock, and it means less freedom for Americans and one has to remark that many new jobs (a new secretary, people working for a start-up, etc) are also never coming in that kind of environment. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/143 "2013-10-07T20:53:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m pretty sure that is not a complete thought, but words are hard, i know. It is still a LAW not a bill, indeed, I prefer to have problems with grammar rather than having problems in identifying propaganda and to get fooled by it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/144 "2013-10-07T21:02:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Follow the thread if you are trying to be cheeky. Poster \*\*Skip \*\*was unaware of Obama’s veto threat and lamented that the House had no reason to not fund the rest of government. You’re a little unclear about the subject of the thread, which is the Republican’s attempt to sabotage a law through extortion instead of the political process. > [@](#): > > Fascism was characterized by state domination of “private” industry. Class dismissed. 1. ACA expands the insurance and health care industry significantly, and in no sensible way puts it under government "domination’. Don’t pay so much attention to your party’s and your TV channel’s talking points. 2. You have just demonstrated that you have no fucking clue what fascism was, and how much real human suffering it caused. But you’re not going to be spoonfed an education here; you have to do your own learning. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/145 "2013-10-07T21:10:45Z")
I find that if you sample a large number of sources, instead of ThinkProgress, Mother Jones, Media Matters, etc, that there is in fact anecdotal evidence that health care costs will go up. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/146 "2013-10-07T21:11:37Z")
Paul Krugman: “Everybody not inside the bubble realizes that Mr. Obama can’t and won’t negotiate under the threat that the House will blow up the economy if he doesn’t — any concession at all would legitimize extortion as a routine part of politics” (From his Op Ed today) Obama is really backed into a corner on this. If he pays a ransom to the extortionists now, then what happens the next time? It’s like Lincoln in the first couple weeks of his administration. He could have let the United States fall apart and not do anything about the seceding states, or he could do what he did. Obama has the same sort of choice this time and his decision is simple and easy. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/147 "2013-10-07T21:18:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re a little unclear about the subject of the thread, which is the Republican’s attempt to sabotage a law through extortion instead of the political process. Extortion is an interesting word to use in this context. > [@](#): > > 1. ACA expands the insurance and health care industry significantly, and in no sensible way puts it under government "domination’. Don’t pay so much attention to your party’s and your TV channel’s talking points. No shit is expands the insurance industry! The government is mandating that we buy their product. Are you blissfully unaware of the coverage mandates associated with the ACA or unaware that they amount to state control of private enterprise? > [@](#): > > 1. You have just demonstrated that you have no fucking clue what fascism was, and how much real human suffering it caused. But you’re not going to be spoonfed an education here; you have to do your own learning. You have demonstrated you have no clue about textbook explanations of economic and political systems. This is basic stuff here, bud. Goosestepping and Brownshirts are not defining characteristics of fascism. State control over private enterprise is. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/148 "2013-10-07T21:22:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I find that if you sample a large number of sources, instead of ThinkProgress, Mother Jones, Media Matters, etc, that there is in fact anecdotal evidence that health care costs will go up. Nah, the $700 drop was reported by Forbes. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16644697](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16644697) > [@](#): > > 2011-2013, uh, it is like if the politicians in Maine were reacting to the 2010 law and they wanted to be ready. > > What I do see is a huge point being missed by Forbes, no matter how you cut it, that 74 percent difference is a demonstration of how inefficient the previous system was/is to prevent specially job lock. > > And simple logic should tell you that a lot of jobs never existed thanks to many individuals that saw the numbers and decided not to go to business on their own. In other policies the extra expense also means that many companies (specially small ones) are not hiring a few more employees not because of Obamacare, but because the already insane health care cost for each employee means that a few workers that could had been hired before are not because of the irrational cost that very little competition has gotten us in the current system. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/149 "2013-10-07T21:29:20Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > You have demonstrated you have no clue about textbook explanations of economic and political systems. This is basic stuff here, bud. Goosestepping and Brownshirts are not defining characteristics of fascism. State control over private enterprise is. I guess you have a cite for the insurance companies not offering some plans now because of orders from the government. Once again, a lot of the FUD is coming from companies that do not want to see more competition cutting on their profits. Both in the insurance and in other companies as they do not want to see start ups appearing without the ball and chain that the high cost of insurance was, they rather keep the current status were they get a break (an unfair one IMHO) over small companies and start-ups thanks to their size. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/150 "2013-10-07T21:36:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > When the people send representatives to Congress, they don’t have to follow the **Uncle Jocko** creed Ah, crap. I was really looking forward to the **Uncle Jocko** creed being a thing. That would have been cool. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/151 "2013-10-07T21:46:42Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Perhaps you can point to the section Boehner and Co. are in violation of? You asked for the handbook on how laws are repealed, I provided it. Besides this shutdown started because the GOP wanted to delay the ACA by a year, not defund or repeal it. As has been repeated many times over the ACA is already funded, which is why health exchanges are open for business while the (non-funded) WW2 memorial is closed. And the GOP has tried to repeal it. 42 times. They don’t have the votes. It’s the law, it’s funded, that’s how a representative democracy works. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/152 "2013-10-07T21:50:09Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > Ah, crap. I was really looking forward to the **Uncle Jocko** creed being a thing. That would have been cool. ☹ \*\*19 Times Democrats Tried to Negotiate With Republicans \*\* > **[19 Times Democrats Tried to Negotiate With Republicans](https://www.nationaljournal.com/s/69116/19-times-democrats-tried-negotiate-with-republicans/)** > > The GOP's biggest talking point of the shutdown is only true if you ignore everything that happened before last week. > [@](#): > > “For six months I’ve tried to enter into formal budget negotiations with Paul Ryan, only to be repeatedly denied permission to negotiate by Ted Cruz and the tea party,” said Senate Budget Committee Chairwoman Patty Murray, D-Wash. “Now, a week into a government shutdown that he could end at a moment’s notice, Speaker Boehner is simply trying to distract from his constantly changing list of demands.” > > The parties flipped positions Monday, the first day of the new fiscal year, when Republicans tried to finally start conference-committee negotiations just minutes before midnight. Democrats balked—“We will not go to conference with a gun to our head,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on the floor—considering that they had been rebuffed almost 20 times beforer and that Republicans had shown no interest until it was already clear the government was closing. Last week, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor tweeted a picture of a faux conference committee, which included zero Democrats, saying, “We sit ready to negotiate with the Senate.” > > Perhaps we could have avoided a shutdown if they had been ready to negotiate before the government ran out of money. The 19 attempts are listed along with the name of the Republican who blocked each one. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/153 "2013-10-07T21:54:06Z")
Wow it’s one thing to read about fearful and paranoid conservatives in a focus group but to witness the hyperbolic mischaracterizations in full-force before my very eyes…it’s quite breathtaking. This is John Boehner’s shutdown. Period. It isn’t Senate majority leader’s, it isn’t the president’s. Boehner has brought us here, he’s keeping us here, and he’s steering us off the cliff. He believes, along with a very sizable chunk of conservatives, that the only way to regain any real power is by damaging the country and/or public opinion of the government on Obama’s watch. Period. Modern-day conservatives have become cross between Al Qaeda and the old Confederacy. Caring more about their own interests than the interests of the greater good or the Republic itself. Desperate, cornered dogs do desperate and terrible things. Problem is, you all cornered yourselves. Up until about three years ago, this was all just the usual ebb and flow of political parties taking and losing power. But now you guys are chewing off your own leg to get out of a corner no one was keeping you in to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/154 "2013-10-07T21:55:30Z")
From Bob Costa’s reporting today: > [@](#): > > Representative Paul Broun (R., Ga.) agrees, and says Boehner risks an internal rebellion if he decides to broker a compromise. “America is going to be destroyed by Obamacare, so whatever deal is put together must at least reschedule the implementation of Obamacare,” he says. We must at least reschedule the destruction of America? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/155 "2013-10-07T21:58:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Are you suggesting that the ACA isn’t living, breathing fascism? If so, i suggest you recalibrate your understanding of the term or the bill. No, it’s **you** who needs to do that, if you think [this half-assed thing](http://www.salon.com/2013/09/26/the_right%e2%80%99s_real_obamacare_nightmare/) amounts to fascism. It only is to the sort of person to whom public libraries amount to fascism. I recall that old-crank-lady at a Town Hall on the ACA, asking Barney Frank how he could support such a “Nazi policy.” He responded by comparing her to a table, to be ignored, which was fair. But he might better have pointed out that while Germany had UHC under the Nazis, it also had it **before** the Nazis. It was introduced by Bismarck. And he was no fascist (fascism was not yet invented), nor a socialist, neither. He introduced UHC, and universal-old-age pensions, to **prevent** socialism in Germany, to take some of the momentum out of the socialist movement there by pre-empting a couple of its least-radical demands. In the same way, FDR’s New Deal, intentionally or unintentionally, did take some wind out of the sails of the American Socialist Party and the Communist Party USA (both much bigger deals, then, than most now remember). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/156 "2013-10-07T22:05:31Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > We need **journalists** who are sure enough if their objective facts to call out pols like Boehner when they flat out lie like this. > > Why not say to Boehner that is not true you are lying. This interview is over until you correct the record and promise to be honest. **I will not tolerated flat out audacious lying on my show.** So what are you going to do? Right now! You have five seconds to answer and it better be right. Journalists don’t have shows. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/157 "2013-10-07T22:10:29Z")
Also the ACA is a plan based on one [originally put forward](http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/21/obamacare-the-heritage-foundation-disowns-its-baby/) by those commie bastards at the Heritage Foundation. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/158 "2013-10-07T22:32:17Z")
Thing is, conservatives aren’t really against the the ACA. They’re against a president that represents secular values, minorities, foreign cultures, perceived “gun-grabbing” and perceived “government dependency.” Damaging his signature legislation and the federal government under his watch is the only way they know to fight this evil and oppressive man, and keep their narrow culture and values alive. Doesn’t matter if they were for it before, or if they even wrote it, Obama and the Democratic Party are the enemy and must be destroyed in order for their own self preservation. Republic be damned! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/159 "2013-10-07T22:50:03Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Fascism was characterized by state domination of “private” industry. Class dismissed. By that thinking **all** industrial regulation is fascist. You don’t believe **that,** do you? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261/160 "2013-10-07T22:52:34Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Goosestepping and Brownshirts are not defining characteristics of fascism. State control over private enterprise is. Then what distinguishes fascism from socialism? (N.B.: A response amounting to “Nothing!” will only display **your** ignorance.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-boehners-shutdown/670261.md?page=9)