# This is for all you Gun Enthuiasts Out There.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2004, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121 "2004-05-02T06:37:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121/21 "2004-05-03T12:39:05Z")
> [@nocturnal\_tick](#): > > So by habit, you mean that it is proper etiquette, in terms of gun safety, to replace the clip? And I suppose it is proper etiquette to have your finger on the trigger while this is going on. If the trigger is so light, then why would you have your finger on it? It seems that if you were trained to abide by gun safety your finger should be outside of the trigger guard at all times, unless you are firing. No, for the first part not proper “etiquette” but habit. And for the second part, just human stupidity or a mistake. If you remove the clip from the gun for the purpose of demonstrating that it is unloaded (such as, when you are handing it to someone for their inspection), when the gun is returned you typically put the clip back in. This is because 1) you’ve got it in your hand, 2) it belongs in the gun if you want to store it. However, the slide should be worked shut _before_ inserting the clip, if you want to have a clip loaded but _not_ the _chamber_ loaded. If you were on the range shooting, or were a law enforcement officer who typically carried the weapon with a live round in the chamber, you would insert the clip, _then_ work the slide, which results in a gun that is cocked and ready to fire, with a live round in the chamber. You would then use the decocker, with the gun pointed in a safe direction, to decock the weapon. You would _not_ have your finger on the trigger, or preferrably not even near it. What I am saying is that the tragedy of mistaken sequence of clip loading and accidental shooting as I described is not unknown, and has happened to two people I know - whereas a dual failure of _both_ extractor _and_ firing pin is unheard of. I asked a friend who works at gun shop with a shooting range about this this weekend, and he concurs that he has never, in the tens of thousands of customers on the range over decades, heard of the sort of failure you seem to propose. However, the sort of human failure I propose happens about once a month - including to police officers, who also use the same range (since many local PDs don’t have their own range). Thankfully, most of the time the gun was pointed downrange so no one was hurt. However, there are more than a few bullet holes in the ceiling and divots out of the floor resulting from times when the weapon was not safely pointed… > [@](#): > > I don’t even know what the man was meant to be demonstrating. Does anyone know? Was he trying to show the gun wouldn’t fire without any rounds? He was presumably trying to show how to check to make certain that the round had cleared the chamber. My opinion is that the round had in fact cleared the chamber, and by human error (perhaps being distracted by the demonstration) he put the clip back in, then worked the slide. If he had the gun held at an angle to show the innards to an audience member, it may very well be he was holding it improperly and had his finger resting on the trigger when he worked the slide shut. Holding my 9mm this morning in a test (what every girl should do on a Monday…), if I rest it to the side my finger does naturally lay across the trigger. If I turn my hand the other way, to the left, the trigger rests driectly on my finger unless I make an effort to curl it out of the way. The “SNAP” of the slide does jerk the gun a bit on some large guns, and if his finger was just resting on the _side_ of the trigger, it might have fired it. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121/22 "2004-05-04T07:58:15Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > As far as we know, he put the clip back in, worked the slide, then shot himself. Even if the live round somehow failed to extract (which is really pretty rare), why did he pull the trigger? Or was this gun somehow suffering from a double failure of a stuck firing pin _and_ failed extractor? Something I’ve never heard of in all my life. Short life? Happened in Nam often enough, with the first version of the M-16. Never saw it happen with a modern semi-auto pistol, though. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121/23 "2004-05-04T12:53:41Z")
Short of him not fully locking back the slide, we are left with two options: 1) the round did not eject from the chamber when he racked the slide back, or 2) he replaced the magazine prior to releasing the slide. From the reports, he did not have the magazine inserted, and I’m going to go with the information given for now, rather than assume facts not in evidence. So, that leaves a mechanical failure, coupled with his failure to recognize that a round did not eject. I don’t know about anyone else, but when I pull the slide on my weapon, I typically am positioned to catch the round that should be ejecting from the chamber, as I don’t like the idea of my as-yet-unfired rounds hitting the floor. If I were demonstrating safety and weapons clearing, I’d damned sure be aware of that missing round, I can’t imagine how you could forget about it. Even if the guy was in total autopilot mode and zoned out after having done the same lecture for the umpteenth time, I find it hard to believe that he would have missed the round in the chamber. Nevermind the accidental firing, that’s something else altogether, I’m just trying to figure out how he could have neglected to notice the round. Visual inspection _should_ have caught it and a pinky in the chamber would definitely have saved him a round in the thigh. Weird, but no, I don’t think he shoud lose his job. Maybe a couple months in the weapons locker, assisting the smith, though. ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121/24 "2004-05-04T12:59:42Z")
Reading that thread linked above in **unclviny** s post, it seems the answer is, in fact, that he replaced the magazine. > [@](#): > > I emailed Pam Johnson (the author of the original Orlando Sentinel article) on Friday when I first saw the story and politely said that the story, as told in the article, was implausible and explained why. > > She sent me a couteous and very prompt reply.\* In her reply she mentioned that witnesses said the magazine was in the gun when it fired.\* > > I don’t think Ms. Johnson understands the workings of semi-auto pistols well enough to understand that the fact that the mag had been replaced was a critical piece of information (emphasis mine) Case closed, the guy screwed up in a big, big way. I still think he should be sent to the weapons locker rather than fired, though. ---
**Author:** ![SnakeSpirit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snakespirit/32/7271_2.png) [@SnakeSpirit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakeSpirit)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121/25 "2004-05-04T20:20:09Z")
> [@thinksnow](#): > > Short of him not fully locking back the slide, we are left with two options: 1) the round did not eject from the chamber when he racked the slide back, or 2) he replaced the magazine prior to releasing the slide. Or, if he didn’t get the slide all the way back, or back even far enough to eject a live round (which is back farther than is needed to eject a spent round on most guns) and his fingers slipped, it could have rammed home a live round in the chamber. I’m not familiar with the configuration of his weapon, but it seems to me he should have had the safety on. If it was an accidental trigger pull it would have prevented the accident. If it was a firing pin jammed in the fire position, how did it get there? I don’t think that was the case. Sounds like he may have been demonstrating to his audience that you NEVER assume a gun is unloaded, and he may have had a round in the chamber so that the viewer could “discover” it. An admirable teaching technique, but Jeez, he could have (should have?) used a dummy round. I don’t think he should be fired, I think he should be _ **shot!** _ Oh, he was, so, back to business as usual. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-for-all-you-gun-enthuiasts-out-there/243121.md?page=1)