# This is how you blow a very winnable election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 26, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094 "2020-08-26T21:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/321 "2020-08-29T19:20:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > My mother and sister are Canadian, and they have had to deal with extremely long wait times for treatment. When I had insurance, so did I. When I had my wisdom teeth out, it was 6 months from the time the dentist said, “Wow, those should have come out years ago”, and the time when he gassed me and punched me repeatedly in the face. When I applied for physical therapy for my sciatica, it was about a year of back and forth with the doctor and insurance before I was approved, for 5 sessions. When I didn’t have insurance, there wasn’t even a line to wait in. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have been an NPR member for years, but sometimes they really make me 🤦🏻‍♂️. I wouldn’t mind them interviewing this author, mind you, if they really pushed back at the argument more. They do so very mildly once or twice, but mostly the questions are basically “Tell us more about why critics of your argument are spouting myths and generally getting it wrong.” There seem to be two points that the author makes. The first is that there is an inequitable distribution of wealth, and that looting evens that out a bit. I’m not sure how I feel on that one, but, if I need and cannot afford a new washing machine, if there is general rioting and looting, I may go to the local hardware store and see what deals I can get. The second is that looting is an inevitable part of social unrest, and so, rather than it be condemned and suppressed, should be seen a sign that the people are not happy, and something should be done on that front. I liken that to a dam breaking. It was society’s fault that the dam was not properly maintained, and now that your town is underwater, yelling at the water for ruining your home or business, while not addressing the failing hydraulic infrastructure is counterproductive. To point to an extreme example: We are fortunate that we have had an adequate food supply in this country as long as anyone can remember. This is not the case everywhere. When people are hungry, then food riots tend to start. Are they justified, or is the government that has failed its people justified in suppressing the riot by force? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/322 "2020-08-29T20:54:25Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > not totally changing the system for those already covered. I think it would be worth changing some aspects though. I’m getting AWFULLY sick and tired of my employers changing insurance carriers every few years, and having to potentially scramble to line up providers who take the insurance du jour. Or that I’m taking long-term medication A, and it’s covered at like $30/90 days, then they switch the insurance on me, and all of a sudden it’s not covered, or it’s twice the price. It’s the petty bullshit that drives me crazy- I wouldn’t have a problem with the government straightening out a lot of that stuff on a UHC scheme like they did preventative care, etc… under the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/323 "2020-08-29T23:33:45Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > the Democrats weakness, inaction, and lack of vision helped the rise of fascism in the GOP. Sounds like the cry of every abusive husband I’ve ever seen in court: “I didn’t want to bounce the toaster oven off her skull, but she’s such a wet noodle she drove me to it!” The Democrats didn’t “make” the Republicans go Nazi-lite. It was a choice, theirs and theirs alone. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/324 "2020-08-29T23:35:36Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > …unless you are going to blame the GOP for the initial form of the ACA as well (which they vehemently opposed). I will. The ACA is essentially RomneyCare which is what Mitt Romney (republican) put in place in Massachusetts and was basically written by the Heritage Foundation (a conservative think tank). Republicans just reflexively opposed anything Obama did. Kidjanot: > **[PolitiFact - Obama says Heritage Foundation is source of health exchange idea](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2010/apr/01/barack-obama/obama-says-heritage-foundation-source-health-excha/)** > > EDITOR'S NOTE: An analysis of this comment by President Barack Obama was published on April 1, 2010. After it appeared, ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/325 "2020-08-29T23:50:27Z")
Here is my In Opposition to Looting: 1. After it, Nixon won. 2. After it, [Trump Went Up in the most crucial polls](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/elections/trump-vs-biden-top-battleground-states/) 3. Looting that went on in a shopping center less than half a mile from me: – Cosmetics store looted – Pharmacy looted – Nail salon looted – Supermarket not looted As for protests, as far as I can tell – and I read the Philadelphia Inquirer pretty carefully that week – there were none within several miles of me. The cause of the looting wasn’t an idea that this will stop Philadelphia Police Dept. brutality, but that it was, that day, possible to get stuff for free with minimal chances of punishment. I live just across the city-suburban line in a suburb. We weren’t looted because our police lined up to protect our stores, and perhaps also because the suburbs are known to give out longer prison sentences. One thing I’m sure: Our stores were NOT spared because looters thought my police were more decent human beings! There was a bigger city supermarket a few miles away that did get hit. Last I saw, the hardware store in that inner city shopping center – the only such store for a long distance around – is still closed. While the Philadelphia looting probably wasn’t severe enough to turn any impoverished neighborhoods back into food deserts, if it happens once or twice more, that could well happen. As for the idea that looting causes social change, not having read the book, I don’t know the argument. I suppose that looting did temporarily reduce policing in Black neighborhoods. But it would seem that the 1964 Philadelphia riots weren;'t very effective in stopping police brutality, to judge from the need for a repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/326 "2020-08-30T02:43:52Z")
Worth a look: > [@](#): > > **Why nonviolent resistance beats violent force in effecting social, political change** > _Harvard Professor Erica Chenoweth discovers nonviolent civil resistance is far more successful in effecting change than violent campaigns._ > > …When Erica Chenoweth started her predoctoral fellowship at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs in 2006, she believed in the strategic logic of armed resistance. She had studied terrorism, civil war, and major revolutions — Russian, French, Algerian, and American — and suspected that only violent force had achieved major social and political change. But then a workshop led her to consider proving that violent resistance was more successful than the nonviolent kind. Since the question had never been addressed systematically, she and colleague Maria J. Stephan began a research project. > > For the next two years, Chenoweth and Stephan collected data on all violent and nonviolent campaigns from 1900 to 2006 that resulted in the overthrow of a government or in territorial liberation. They created a data set of 323 mass actions. Chenoweth analyzed nearly 160 variables related to success criteria, participant categories, state capacity, and more. The results turned her earlier paradigm on its head — in the aggregate, nonviolent civil resistance was far more effective in producing change. … > **[Why nonviolent resistance beats violent force in effecting social, political...](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/)** > > Harvard Professor Erica Chenoweth discovers nonviolent civil resistance is far more successful in effecting change than violent campaigns. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/327 "2020-08-30T05:06:13Z")
Nice. Let’s recall that one of the items cited in the Harper’s letter denouncing “cancel culture” was the researcher who got fired for tweeting out research findings (from a Black researcher!) showing that rioting and looting had negative electoral consequences for Democrats. This was said to be “racist”. 🙄 > [@k9bfriender](#): > > We are fortunate that we have had an adequate food supply in this country as long as anyone can remember. This is not the case everywhere. When people are hungry, then food riots tend to start. Are they justified, or is the government that has failed its people justified in suppressing the riot by force? I would consider that night-and-day different. No, I definitely don’t begrudge food rioting. But “grab a flat screen TV” rioting? Uh, yeah: I denounce that. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/328 "2020-08-30T05:22:40Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > {…} food rioting. {…} “grab a flat screen TV” rioting Neither of those is ‘rioting’, but much like a Republican, everything would seem to be rioting to you. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/329 "2020-08-30T05:36:06Z")
I was literally responding to someone who ASKED about “food riots”. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/330 "2020-08-30T05:39:04Z")
And that was your chance to show your ‘liberal’ credentials. Instead you agreed to the labeling of starving people taking food as ‘rioting’. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/331 "2020-08-30T05:57:39Z")
That would be in the sentence you couldn’t quote in its entirety, because it wouldn’t set up your strawman. So instead you just snipped out the two words, “food rioting”. The whole sentence being: > [@SlackerInc](#): > > No, I definitely don’t begrudge food rioting. Pfffffffft. Yes, that’s so conservative of me, to answer a question about “food riots” by saying “I definitely don’t begrudge food rioting”. You are ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/332 "2020-08-30T06:04:11Z")
Hear that starving poors? Slacker does not _begrudge_ your theft of food. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/333 "2020-08-30T06:08:41Z")
I wonder which of the two of us has spent more time on food stamps (“SNAP”) over the past ten years? Or WIC? Whose kids have received more free school lunches? You’d have to have quite a few to beat my number. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/334 "2020-08-30T06:11:46Z")
I’m disabled, I was using food stamps when they were still made of paper. So, every year for more than twenty years. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/335 "2020-08-30T06:14:48Z")
Fine, you win that one. But I’m also well acquainted with food insecurity. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/336 "2020-08-30T08:32:46Z")
One should be against looting regardless of the polls. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_McCabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Earl\_McCabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_McCabe)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/337 "2020-08-30T13:01:57Z")
If a person cannot secure enough food when it is more plentiful than it has been in the history of the world, I don’t think they should be making decisions that impact others’ ability to do so. Case in point. I see that we have anecdotal evidence that use of food stamps is correlated with sympathy for “food rioting”. Food rioting can only result in decreases in the food supply, which increases prices for everyone else. So either food rioting supporters are actively anti-social or they have not satisfied the basic needs of a body that is prepared to practice pro-social behaviors based on empathy. In either case, voting should be discouraged in this group for the benefit of society as a whole. It can be plainly seen that increased food production and observation of food property rights are highly correlated by looking at various economic freedom indexes and reports of food shortages. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/338 "2020-08-30T14:56:13Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Let’s recall that one of the items cited in the Harper’s letter denouncing “cancel culture” was the researcher who got fired for tweeting out research findings (from a Black researcher!) showing that rioting and looting had negative electoral consequences for Democrats. This was said to be “racist”. 🙄 But, in that he was using that as justification for telling the protesters to stop protesting, because there were occasions of violence is what was objected to. I don’t really see why pointing out that violence is bad optics. It is, absolutely it is, no one is denying that. The question is what to do about it. And when the answer is to stop having protests, then that is punishing the protesters for the actions of people they have no control over. And so, when in response to protests, someone says, “Hey, violence is bad, mkay” it comes across at the very least as tone deaf, and creates the implication that the protesters are the ones who are engaging in the violence. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I would consider that night-and-day different. No, I definitely don’t begrudge food rioting. But “grab a flat screen TV” rioting? Uh, yeah: I denounce that. I specifically meant it as an extreme example of inequality. How would you feel about going out to loot a computer so that your child can take online classes? A washing machine so that you are able to send your kids out in clean clothes? Clothes or shoes to replace the rags that your children currently wear? I denounce looting too, but I also see it as a sign of civil inequalities that need to be addressed before the dam breaks even further. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I wonder which of the two of us has spent more time on food stamps (“SNAP”) over the past ten years? Or WIC? Whose kids have received more free school lunches? You’d have to have quite a few to beat my number. I am happy to say that my taxes have gone to help support your children. Me, as a single white male in his 30’s was denied food assistance because they thought I should just get another job instead. (When there were no jobs to be had in 2010) ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/339 "2020-08-30T17:33:16Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > My only point here is that they _did_ ask Republicans for input. The started from a Republican plan, and then added a whole bunch of Republican amendments. And a whole bunch of non Republican positions. Such as banning preexisting condition exclusions, ending lifetime and annual limits, mandating 100% coverage for preventive care, mandating Medicaid expansion (struck down by SCOTUS). They needed to reach out to the Republicans because they knew they had Senators like Manchin and McCaskill that may not be on board with a lot of it so they wanted to see if they could pull someone like Collins over. It didn’t work, but it was a sound strategy (they had to pull the public option off the table because Manchin said he wouldn’t vote for the bill with it and they couldn’t pull Republican voters for it). Listen, don’t let exchanges and working though ER based insurance blind you to all the Democratic positions in the bill that Republicans strongly objected to. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2020, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094/340 "2020-08-30T17:36:41Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Listen, don’t let exchanges and working though ER based insurance blind you to all the Democratic positions in the bill that Republicans strongly objected to. Well, yeah, because they object to the very notion of a universal healthcare system. That’s the whole point. Trying to reach across the aisle to get someone on board that will never come on board is futile. If they’d nuked the filibuster in 2008, we’d have a much better bill, republicans would still bitch, but they’d have less room because they wouldn’t be able to point to the flaws in the ACA that they insisted should be there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-how-you-blow-a-very-winnable-election/919094.md?page=18)