# This is NOT a fair world, you conservative fools. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707 "2017-05-02T11:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/81 "2017-05-02T17:39:34Z")
**Bricker** , I’m a Christian and mostly opposed to abortion, but you have to admit that it’s not a topic that’s really addressed in the Bible. “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you” isn’t relevant at all, because it’s in reference to the timeless nature of God, not to when personhood begins: It _can’t_ be in reference to when personhood begins, because it says “before”, not “ever since”. The closest I can find to any reference to prenatal personhood is at Mary’s visit to Elizabeth, when the child within Elizabeth’s womb (who would later be John the Baptist) leapt for joy. But that’s somewhere in the third trimester, and a restriction on third-trimester abortion isn’t all that controversial even among the nonreligious. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/82 "2017-05-02T17:48:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > No. It was a selective and misleading quote. > > Ryan was just saying that as a practical matter this is not working, for this reason. > > See the video of his remarks [here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/ryan-obamacare-in-a-death-spiral-because-healthy-people-are-forced-to-pay-for-sicker-people/2017/03/09/7a549002-0506-11e7-9d14-9724d48f5666_video.html). There’s nothing there about morality or right or wrong. > > He’s right about it too. One of the fundamental principles of insurance - which those criticizing other people’s understanding of insurance are either ignoring or ignorant of - is that predictable risk needs to be accurately priced. (That’s why you have actuaries in the world :)). Otherwise, those who are being overpriced will know that they’re subsidizing those who are being underpriced and won’t be inclined to buy in. > > That’s why other forms of insurance - e.g. life insurance - price differently based on age and gender groups. Under the ACA, the ability of insurance companies to price accurately based on known risk classifications has been artificially limited by public policy concerns, which created the situation where there is a lot of known cross-subsidization across risk classifications, which skewed the enrollment and caused the problems that the exchanges face today. > > The above is not anything new, and was widely discussed when the ACA was passed. At the time, the thinking was that the subsidies for low income people, plus various risk-sharing arrangements, would mitigate the impact of this. But it’s increasingly looking like it wasn’t enough. > > At any rate, that’s what Ryan appear to be talking about, which is unrelated to the morality interpretation being attacked in this thread. So when Ryan is Repub-splaining how health insurance works in one breath, in the next, he’s staunchly defending every red blooded American’s right NOT to be forced to pay for health insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/83 "2017-05-02T17:49:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Why not? Your side does exactly that on a daily basis. Conservatives constantly claim to be Christians in order to win elections but then fail to follow basic Christian beliefs when they’re in office. That’s because they’re not Christians. They serve Satan. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/84 "2017-05-02T17:51:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The closest I can find to any reference to prenatal personhood is at Mary’s visit to Elizabeth, when the child within Elizabeth’s womb (who would later be John the Baptist) leapt for joy. But that’s somewhere in the third trimester, and a restriction on third-trimester abortion isn’t all that controversial even among the nonreligious. The following seems to be an okay from God for having a priest put a curse on an unchaste woman that causes an abortion. > **[Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:11-21 - New International Version](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205:11-21&version=NIV)** > > The Test for an Unfaithful Wife - Then the LORD said to Moses, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and... ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/85 "2017-05-02T17:56:06Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > That’s because they’re not Christians. They serve Satan. Maybe, maybe not. But they’re certainly hypocrites. Jesus explicitly does not like hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/86 "2017-05-02T17:58:31Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Spin it how you like, but healthy people paying for sick people and young people paying for the health care of old people _ **is how health care works in every civilized country on earth** _, and the only way it can possibly work in any practical sense and certainly in any society that has aspirations to regard itself as civilized and moral. QFT. The thing that some people forget is that there aren’t simply healthy people and sick people. There are currently healthy people who may acquire serious medical problems at any time, and currently sick people who may get better. Anyone’s house can get struck by lightning, and anyone’s car can get totalled. That’s why we get insurance. We are all in the same boat, and it’s sinking. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/87 "2017-05-02T18:01:40Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > … One of the fundamental principles of insurance - which those criticizing other people’s understanding of insurance are either ignoring or ignorant of - is that predictable risk needs to be accurately priced. (That’s why you have actuaries in the world :)). Otherwise, those who are being overpriced will know that they’re subsidizing those who are being underpriced and won’t be inclined to buy in. > > That’s why other forms of insurance - e.g. life insurance - price differently based on age and gender groups. Under the ACA, the ability of insurance companies to price accurately based on known risk classifications has been artificially limited by public policy concerns, which created the situation where there is a lot of known cross-subsidization across risk classifications, which skewed the enrollment and caused the problems that the exchanges face today. Here’s the problem with the “fundamental principle of insurance” argument. Life insurance, car insurance, and all other forms of insurance are not determiners of life and death, or the alleviation of human suffering. Thousands of Americans literally die every year from lack of adequate health care coverage. There is no way to argue that this isn’t a moral issue. There is thus a fundamental disconnect between the fundamental principle of insurance as a business and the moral and ethical imperative of health care. Generally speaking most countries’ health insurance systems manage this problem for all or the majority of the population through a community-rated premium model, where everyone pays the same rate for the same services, and the young and healthy are, quite literally, paying for the sick and the elderly. But everyone is in the same boat due to universal coverage and universal participation, and it ultimately saves a great deal of money on a per-capita basis. What Ryan and the other Republicans are doing is seeking to emphasize the worst, most unfair, and most unworkable aspects of the health insurance system. They’re exhibiting a reckless disregard for moral principles and basic human decency in order to promote a completely inappropriate commercial insurance model for health care on behalf of their corporate masters, particularly the insurance lobby, and they don’t care how many people suffer and die because of it. They deserve all the scorn they’re getting. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/88 "2017-05-02T18:04:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have a theory about that – when **Shodan** puts some effort in, he can be reasonable, thoughtful, intelligent, and entirely decent. But very often he doesn’t want to, and lazy **Shodan** is just a snarky asshole. Has he been interesting any time in the last couple of years? All I see now is an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/89 "2017-05-02T18:05:23Z")
Another thing that people forget is that sick people still contribute to the net economy, and that healthcare allows them to _continue_ to contribute. I have Diabetes - This doesn’t mean that I don’t pay taxes, it doesn’t mean I dont buy things - And it certainly doesn’t mean I don’t contriubte to the bottom line of my company. I’m not on the public dime, for healthcare, but I _could_ be, depending on circumstances. Without the therapies provided by insurance, I’d be dead years ago. Instead, I am able to actively participate in the economic health of the nation, and will be doing so for decades to come (provided I don’t step under a falling rock). Insurance, in my case, and in the case of millions of people like me, means prolonging our economic contribution to the GNP and society in general. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/90 "2017-05-02T18:07:40Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Here’s the problem with the “fundamental principle of insurance” argument. Life insurance, car insurance, and all other forms of insurance are not determiners of life and death, or the alleviation of human suffering. Thousands of Americans literally die every year from lack of adequate health care coverage. There is no way to argue that this isn’t a moral issue. Even assuming that’s true, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t also a practical component as well. Ryan was addressing the practical aspect of it, and it’s wrong to pretend that he was discussing morality. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/91 "2017-05-02T18:11:50Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > That’s because they’re not Christians. They serve Satan. I think it’s plenty to say that they are selfish dipshits. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/92 "2017-05-02T18:21:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, no. Those are two different claims. “I am a Christian,” is not the same as “I will implement Christian-grounded legislation.” You mentioned Christian teachings. Do you feel it’s consistent with Christian teachings to identify as a Christian without acting as a Christian? It’s true God didn’t specifically say “implement Christian-grounded legislation”. It’s also true I didn’t make that claim. I guess in Bricker’s Law of SDMB Discourse, two no’s equals one so. What I said was “follow basic Christian beliefs”. And God had a lot to say about helping the sick and the poor; He was in favor of it. God seems to feel that acting like a Christian is a necessary part of being a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/93 "2017-05-02T18:24:25Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > All I see now is an asshole. You’re standing too close. There’s a whole lot of ass around it. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/94 "2017-05-02T18:41:12Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > They serve Satan. I hear he’s a good tipper. ---
**Author:** ![Beren\_Erchamion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/90ced4/32.png) [@Beren\_Erchamion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beren_Erchamion)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/95 "2017-05-02T18:54:35Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I hear he’s a good tipper. So is Clint Howard. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/96 "2017-05-02T19:06:51Z")
x-ray vision: > [@](#): > > The following seems to be an okay from God for having a priest put a curse on an unchaste woman that causes an abortion. That bit in your quote about the “womb miscarrying” is a mistranslation. The correct translation is that her “thigh should fall”, pregnant or not pregnant. Whatever one’s opinion of the idea of curses for a woman suspected of adultery, those verses offer no direction on the subject of abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/97 "2017-05-02T19:18:05Z")
> [@Beren\_Erchamion](#): > > That’s because they’re not Christians. They serve Satan. Stan’s an OK guy. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/98 "2017-05-02T19:32:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Even assuming that’s true, that doesn’t mean that there isn’t also a practical component as well. Ryan was addressing the practical aspect of it, and it’s wrong to pretend that he was discussing morality. There’s no “assuming” here – it’s self-evidently true that health insurance is not the same as car insurance in deeply fundamental ways, and there’s no lack of evidence that thousands of Americans die prematurely every year for lack of affordable health care. As for the practical component, I addressed practical options in the next two paragraphs – the ones that you didn’t quote and chose not to respond to. Do you deny that every civilized country on earth has been able to provide universal health care, and that those solutions are “practical”? And even if you want a uniquely American solution largely focused on private insurance, do you deny that the ACA has gone a long way toward reducing the number of uninsured and making health care more accessible to millions? You know the ACA – that thing that Republicans have spent the last 8 years constantly trying to repeal! I think they tried about 50 times, so much did it irk them that the poor and sick were getting health care that they didn’t “deserve”. This time they actually had the votes to do it, but it gradually became apparent that the shameless pandering to the rich while depriving millions of health care was going to cost them votes. The truth is that the problem with the ACA is that it doesn’t go nearly far enough. It needs more regulation, more subsidies, and a greater push toward true universality including a public option that private insurers would have to compete with. It needs, IOW, precisely those things that Republicans want to move away from the most, and fast. And now they can’t do it because the sheer irrationality and blatant pandering of what they want has bitten them in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/99 "2017-05-02T19:33:03Z")
You know it’s an American site when a discussion about healthcare immediately descends into arguments about Christianity and abortions. The forces arrayed against UHC are responsible for more dead Americans than ISIS could ever dream. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/100 "2017-05-02T19:33:24Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Stan’s an OK guy. I’m now picturing [these shorts](http://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/150608090420-wawrinka-shorts-super-169.jpg) with a cutout for a tail. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707.md?page=6)