# This is NOT a fair world, you conservative fools. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2017, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707 "2017-05-02T11:02:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/101 "2017-05-02T19:37:49Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As for the practical component, I addressed practical options in the next two paragraphs – the ones that you didn’t quote and chose not to respond to. I didn’t respond to those paragraphs because they were irrelevant to the discussion here. You were just advocating for a single-payer system, similar to other countries. But that’s not the topic being discussed. The topic here is the meaning of Ryan’s comments. He was discussing the actual ACA program, not the feasibility of alternatives such as single payer systems. I’m getting the sense that you view any and all discussions of anything ACA-related as being broad topics encompassing the entirety of your views on public healthcare, but the particular point being made was narrower than that. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/102 "2017-05-02T19:47:00Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Boggle. Double boggle. > > One day, it might be her or someone about whom she cares. Hopefully, he will be voted out and go broke, and HE will get sick -and be refused medical care. That would be justice… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/103 "2017-05-02T19:51:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t speak for Shodan, but I object to this charge. You cannot invoke religious teachings only when they are consonant with your desired outcomes and reject them when they are not. Your side demands a secular government, and are furious when religion is offered up as a reason for public policy. > > Can’t have it both ways: I again don’t speak for Shodan, but if you want to accept the Church’s teachings on abortion as sound public policy I’ll get behind applying the Church’s teachings on medical issues as sound policy also. > > But you cannot demand that your opponents agree that the public purse succors the afflicted in the doctor’s office because the Bible says to, and then angrily deride them for pointing out that “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” is also in the Bible. I’d be happy if religion and “pseudo-christianity” were to be purged from ALL social and political considerations. But as long as these self proclaimed “christians” (but really unchristian assholes) continue to jam their own personal heresies in our faces, ALL is fair. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/104 "2017-05-02T19:51:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Liberal positions are revealed to be steeped in hypocrisy. Must be a day ending in . . . aw, crap, he used that one already. Well, I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/105 "2017-05-02T19:53:11Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Dude, your “side” does just this. Shodan does this to a T. > Your side actually \*claims \*the mantle of the “Christian” side! I’m merely pointing out the hypocrisy here. You can have fully secular government, and still advocate for the poor, the sick, the unborn, the refugee, the immigrant, the prisoner…you know the things Jesus told us to do. > > So why does “your side” advocate for the Biblical when it comes to the unborn, but ignore everything else in the Bible when it comes to caring for the poor, immigrant, sick, etc. I don’t angrily deride them for pointing out what’s in the Bible, I angrily deride them for being hypocrites, picking and choosing what they support, and attempting to discriminate based on-- well, take your pick (wealth, nation of origin, sexual orientation, gender, religion). > > I can’t speak for the Democratic platform. I speak as a Christian liberal. That’s “my side.” I go to church weekly, and I advocate for less abortion through public policies that support the mother, family, babies, children, the sick, the poor, the immigrant, the refugee, the worker, etc. I do think abortion is bad, for Biblical reasons, but I don’t choose to ignore everything else the Bible says about caring for the poor, sick, loving your neighbor, grace, mercy, Imago Dei… This. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/106 "2017-05-02T19:54:15Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Tell that to “Christian” Republicans who claim the United States is a Christian nation, founded on Christian principles; pass legislation that forbids same-sex marriage because it goes against their interpretation of the Bible; want to ban abortion because “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you;” claim to be the party of family values while breaking up families because of where someone was born; fight for prayer in schools; fight for the Ten Commandments to be on display at courthouses, while also passing ordinances banning Sharia Law (without really knowing what Sharia Law even is); fight to shut down women’s health organizations and clinics because they offer things that go against their religion; fight to keep refugees out, sometimes even based on religion. > > But then protect capital at the expense of human beings. > > And then say it’s not their place to govern and legislate based on their religious beliefs. > > That’s the very definition of hypocrisy. and this. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/107 "2017-05-02T19:59:15Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I didn’t respond to those paragraphs because they were irrelevant to the discussion here. You were just advocating for a single-payer system, similar to other countries. But that’s not the topic being discussed. The topic here is the meaning of Ryan’s comments. He was discussing the actual ACA program, not the feasibility of alternatives such as single payer systems. > > I’m getting the sense that you view any and all discussions of anything ACA-related as being broad topics encompassing the entirety of your views on public healthcare, but the particular point being made was narrower than that. OK, let’s look at the converse of that. If one accepts what appear to be certain basic Republican dogmas, such as the idea that people should only ever get what they can personally afford to pay for, even if it’s access to health care and life itself, and that society collectively has zero responsibility for the well-being of its individual members and that this is NOT the precept of a civilized society, and that therefore the traditional model of commercial insurance is an appropriate way to fund health care even if it doesn’t fucking work and millions are left to die, then viewed through that lens and with those criteria Ryan’s comments make perfect sense. Is that what you wanted to hear? I mean, if I come across someone who has just collapsed on a street corner and obviously needs medical attention, am I not justified in saying, “fuck you, you’re not my problem”? Because after all, this person is legally NOT my problem; I didn’t cause whatever happened to him – we just happen to be members of the same community, and I have every right to ignore his pleas for help and go about my business. Any obligation I might have would be due to introducing concepts like morality, which Republicans seem to find annoying. IOW, you can always justify the repulsive views of assholes like Ryan by isolating them from any moral context and looking at them in the sterile light of pure commerce. Trouble is, real societies are about a lot more than pure commerce. Real societies actually have to be functional in real and human ways. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/108 "2017-05-02T20:04:42Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > IOW, you can always justify the repulsive views of assholes like Ryan by isolating them from any moral context and looking at them in the sterile light of pure commerce. Trouble is, real societies are about a lot more than pure commerce. Real societies actually have to be functional in real and human ways. If this sort of social Darwinism is the goal, let’s just go ALL the way. We won’t need any rules, laws, or even society for that matter. To the winner go all the spoils. The strong survive and crush the weak. Take what you want by any means necessary, and try to defend it from the other takers. I wonder how many of these right wing “supermen” would survive even the first day in a world like that. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/109 "2017-05-02T20:20:06Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > OK, let’s look at the converse of that. If one accepts what appear to be certain basic Republican dogmas, such as the idea that people should only ever get what they can personally afford to pay for, even if it’s access to health care and life itself, and that society collectively has zero responsibility for the well-being of its individual members and that this is NOT the precept of a civilized society, and that therefore the traditional model of commercial insurance is an appropriate way to fund health care even if it doesn’t fucking work and millions are left to die, then viewed through that lens and with those criteria Ryan’s comments make perfect sense. Is that what you wanted to hear? As previous, Ryan’s comments were about the practical feasibility of the ACA specifically. As such, whether or not they make perfect sense has zero to do with whether these supposed “basic Republican dogmas” are true or not. That’s the last time I bother repeating this. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/110 "2017-05-02T20:23:33Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > You know it’s an American site when a discussion about healthcare immediately descends into arguments about Christianity and abortions. The forces arrayed against UHC are responsible for more dead Americans than ISIS could ever dream. Hell, binge drinking accounts for more dead Americans than ISIS could dream. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/111 "2017-05-02T20:47:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As previous, Ryan’s comments were about the practical feasibility of the ACA specifically. As such, whether or not they make perfect sense has zero to do with whether these supposed “basic Republican dogmas” are true or not. > > That’s the last time I bother repeating this. Good. Because it’s just as stupid of a point the second time around. The GOP and Ryan specifically has spent years in trying to dismantle the ACA while promising that they have a much better solution. But when it was time to put up or shut-up, they fucking choked on their own vomit. So pardon us for thinking that what Ryan is repub-splaining to the GOP choir is not worth the time it takes to listen to him torture the fucking obvious. Yes, the ACA is not perfect and it needs fixing. I hope (but not holding my breath) the GOP will come to that realization not too long after it runs out of all other incredibly stupid options. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/112 "2017-05-02T20:52:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Good. Because it’s just as stupid of a point the second time around. ISTM that you’re not much brighter than wolfpup, if at all. “ACA good, Republicans bad”, and that’s about as sophisticated as thought can get for your ilk. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/113 "2017-05-02T21:27:43Z")
This coming from a guy who thinks Ryan was making a salient point. I think I can survive that sick burn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/114 "2017-05-02T21:29:39Z")
I’m sure you can. Your mindset pretty much inures you from anything getting through that might challenge your preconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/115 "2017-05-02T21:53:53Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Jesus didn’t divide people into “good” and “bad”. He healed everyone, no questions asked. [Supply Side Jesus:](http://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp) You can’t walk and you can’t afford surgery? That’s rough, buddy. Did you try a spaghetti dinner? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/116 "2017-05-02T22:00:20Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > That bit in your quote about the “womb miscarrying” is a mistranslation. The correct translation is that her “thigh should fall”, pregnant or not pregnant. Whatever one’s opinion of the idea of curses for a woman suspected of adultery, those verses offer no direction on the subject of abortion. How does one improperly translate “thigh” to mean a womb and what does it means for a thigh to fall? Some translations talk about a womb rather than a thigh because a womb is euphemistically called a thigh, here and in other places: _“progeny of your thigh”_ > **[Women and Jewish Law](https://books.google.com/books?id=UYHNaY1oXQQC&pg=PA186#v=onepage&q&f=false)** > > How has a legal tradition determined by men affected the lives of women? What are the traditional Jewish views of marriage, divorce, sexuality, contraception, abortion? Women and Jewish Law gives contemporary readers access to the central texts of... Also the next passage is: _28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be cleared, and shall conceive seed._ Evidence that thigh was indeed a euphemism. The _The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Volume 30_ states that the correct translation meaning abortion is of little doubt: > **[The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures](https://books.google.com/books?id=vbY1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q&f=false)** Another cite: > **[The Collegeville Bible Commentary](https://books.google.com/books?id=Nj-AkOJ9wRQC&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q&f=false)** > > The Collegeville Bible Commentary is available in an affordable two-volume paperback edition. Special "ease" binding allows the volumes to lay open without assistance. Perfect for classroom use or personal study. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/117 "2017-05-02T22:12:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that you’re not much brighter than wolfpup, if at all. > > “ACA good, Republicans bad”, and that’s about as sophisticated as thought can get for your ilk. So you’re done with the discussion, but always have time for gratuitous insults? What a good Republican! But I’m not merely just dumb, according to Paul Ryan’s standards, I’m also somewhat old. Old enough that some of my older relatives were instrumental in the formation of Canada’s first full-fledged universal health care system, a system where today no Canadian is deprived of top quality health care regardless of economic means. A system where last December I left hospital after almost a week-long stay and robotically assisted cardiac surgery, and my major financial responsibility on leaving was to thank everyone and wave goodbye to the nurses. This is the society I live in. That’s how stupid I am. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/118 "2017-05-02T22:13:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > “ACA good, Republicans bad”, and that’s about as sophisticated as thought can get for your ilk. It is simplistic to be sure. If only Republicans could manage to provide any reason to dispute the statement on its merits… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/119 "2017-05-02T22:16:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Bricker** , I’m a Christian and mostly opposed to abortion, but you have to admit that it’s not a topic that’s really addressed in the Bible. “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you” isn’t relevant at all, because it’s in reference to the timeless nature of God, not to when personhood begins: It _can’t_ be in reference to when personhood begins, because it says “before”, not “ever since”. > > The closest I can find to any reference to prenatal personhood is at Mary’s visit to Elizabeth, when the child within Elizabeth’s womb (who would later be John the Baptist) leapt for joy. But that’s somewhere in the third trimester, and a restriction on third-trimester abortion isn’t all that controversial even among the nonreligious. Here’s what I said: > [@Bricker](#): > > Can’t have it both ways: I again don’t speak for Shodan, but if you want to accept the Church’s teachings on abortion as sound public policy I’ll get behind applying the Church’s teachings on medical issues as sound policy also. > > But you cannot demand that your opponents agree that the public purse succors the afflicted in the doctor’s office because the Bible says to, and then angrily deride them for pointing out that “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you,” is also in the Bible. That post of mine adverts to both “Church teachings” and the Bible, and it did so deliberately. In the Roman Catholic view, the Bible is not the sole source of divine truth. Whether or not one may deduce the prohibition of abortion from _sola scriptura_, my view is that the gospel was handed down both in scripture and by the apostles who handed it on by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. . . and that the living transmission of truth is sustained inerrantly by the Holy Spirit. So, yes – point noted. I did not intend to argue that scripture alone settles the abortion issue. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707/120 "2017-05-02T22:18:52Z")
Also, Exodus 1:5: **New American Standard Bible** [http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm](http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm) \*All the persons who came from the loins of Jacob were seventy in number, but Joseph was already in Egypt. \* [http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm](http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm) **Young’s Literal Translation** : \*And all the persons coming out of the thigh of Jacob are seventy persons; as to Joseph, he was in Egypt. \* [http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm](http://biblehub.com/nasb/exodus/1.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-not-a-fair-world-you-conservative-fools/785707.md?page=7)