# This is parody, right? (Meme about extreme libertarianism) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554 "2024-02-14T16:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2024, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/223 "2024-04-17T20:56:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Actually, a lot of the religious conservatives are nowadays embracing the ‘leaders can be the embodiment of the 7 sins’ but that is ok because ‘that way God is enabling good Christians to do the right things unhindered.’ Which of course totally misunderstands Cyrus. The biblical Cyrus is a model of morality and tolerance. His only sin was that he wasn’t Jewish, and even this wasn’t a sin because Jews don’t expect gentiles to be Jewish. Trump is the polar opposite, he claims to be Christian but acts entirely opposite to all of Christs teachings, exuding nothing but immorality and hatred. ETA: Simulpost with Chronos. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/225 "2024-04-23T17:16:16Z")
Maybe Trump is like Miley Cyrus, in that he comes in like a wrecking ball? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/226 "2024-04-23T19:55:55Z")
I think Trump comes in like this. [![](https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/puffball-fungus-spores-reproduction-smoke-260nw-311803241.jpg) ](https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/puffball-fungus-spores-reproduction-smoke-260nw-311803241.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/228 "2024-04-29T08:09:27Z")
Which is why it appeals to criminals, and not to victims. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/229 "2024-05-03T06:49:03Z")
Perhaps I haven’t read this thread carefully enough, but I wasn’t aware or had forgotten that the Libertarian Party was subjected to a successful hostile takeover by a group calling itself the Mises Caucus. Mass resignations followed. One of their first acts was to delete a nearly 50-year-old platform plank condemning bigotry as “irrational and repugnant.” They maintained that the Libertarian Party of 4 years ago was too woke. Now in power, they express anti-Semitism in pretty overt ways. Donald Trump will be headline speaker at their upcoming convention. > **[Is the Libertarian Party Too Bigoted Even for Trump?](https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-the-libertarian-party-too-bigoted-even-for-trump?ref=home?ref=home)** > > Donald Trump’s scheduled appearance at the L.P.’s convention would arguably be the most overtly bigoted stage he’s ever shared. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/230 "2024-05-03T11:09:05Z")
Thanks for that link; I hadn’t heard about that at all. Wild stuff. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/231 "2024-05-03T11:51:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > wasn’t aware or had forgotten that the Libertarian Party was subjected to a successful hostile takeover by a group calling itself the Mises Caucus I wasn’t aware of this either but it completely fits with what I’ve seen happened to libertarians over there last decade, who almost to a man (and they are all men) have gone from “free thinking independents who aren’t tied to any party doctrine” to card carrying MAGAts. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2024, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/232 "2024-05-03T22:50:17Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I hadn’t heard about that at all. Wild stuff. Me either. Once upon a time I was very sympathetic to the Libertarian cause, and even gave support to a couple of their guys, but that was before all of that bullshit. I didn’t realize how bad things got over there. I read about this group on their Wikipedia page: > **[Mises Caucus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mises_Caucus)** > > The Libertarian Party Mises Caucus (LPMC) is a caucus within the Libertarian Party in the United States that promotes paleolibertarianism, as well as a more radical version of American libertarianism associated with the presidential campaigns of former U.S. congressman Ron Paul. It was founded in 2017 by Michael Heise, mainly in opposition to Nicholas Sarwark's position as party chairman and the pragmatic faction of the party associated with the presidential campaigns of former New Mexico Gove Th... From that description, it sounds like they make the Freedom Caucus look like moderates. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/233 "2024-05-06T22:10:07Z")
Also, regarding their [chairwoman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_McArdle) > McArdle is a noted Russophile, giving an op-ed to Newsweek claiming that Russian forces were not committing a genocide in Ukraine, retorting that Ukrainians are committing war crimes against the Russian population of the Donbas, as well as saying that the United States forced Russia, and Vladimir Putin to invade Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/234 "2024-05-26T03:13:56Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I wasn’t aware or had forgotten that the Libertarian Party was subjected to a successful hostile takeover by a group calling itself the Mises Caucus. Mass resignations followed. Trump unsuccessfully tried to pack his speaking room with MAGA supporters, some apparently unaffiliated with the Libertarian Party (eg Young Republicans). So Trump gave his speech in front of a mixed crowd and was booed fairly relentlessly. Meidastouch reports on the pandemonium. (13 min). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8gkY1k-Fz0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8gkY1k-Fz0) Even allowing for selective picking of bad moments it looks like Trump had a rough time. Six second version at Twitter-X: [https://x.com/BidensWins/status/1794533264473965033](https://x.com/BidensWins/status/1794533264473965033) Politico: [‘Panderer’: Libertarians jeer Trump at their convention](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/25/panderer-libertarians-jeer-trump-at-their-convention-00160023). > In response, the Washington Hilton ballroom erupted in boos. Trump was met with a chant to “debate” Libertarian candidates, and every time Trump fans in the room tried to start a “We want Trump” chant, libertarians yelled “End the Fed,” referring to the Federal Reserve. [AP:](https://apnews.com/article/trump-libertarian-convention-rfk-jr-biden-816e3209fdf993c2ba7f6caed0ebcdb7) “One person who held up a sign reading “No wannabe dictators!” was dragged away by security.” > Those for and against Trump even clashed over seating arrangements. About two hours before the former president’s arrival, Libertarian organizers asked Trump supporters in the crowd to vacate the first four rows. They wanted convention delegates — many of whom said they’d traveled from around the country and bought expensive tickets to the proceedings — could sit close enough to hear the speech. ---
**Author:** ![Boudicca90](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boudicca90/32/16818_2.png) [@Boudicca90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boudicca90)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2024, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/235 "2024-05-26T16:22:13Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I wasn’t aware of this either but it completely fits with what I’ve seen happened to libertarians over there last decade, who almost to a man (and they are all men) have gone from “free thinking independents who aren’t tied to any party doctrine” to card carrying MAGAts. Even though I’m a leftist, I did have some respect for libertarians in the past due to their views on social issues and opposition to the War on Terror. Libertarians today are nothing like them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/236 "2024-05-27T00:33:40Z")
Perhaps another example of “I didn’t leave the Party; the Party left me.” Seems to be the story of whatever the totalitarian Right touches. I wonder where the “real” Libertarians went after the Mises crowd ran them out of their own party? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/237 "2024-05-27T02:22:58Z")
> [@Boudicca90](#): > > Even though I’m a leftist, I did have some respect for libertarians in the past due to their views on social issues and opposition to the War on Terror. Libertarians today are nothing like them. Libertarians today are nothing like _they claimed to be_ back then. I wouldn’t take their old self-descriptions too seriously (especially their denials that they were not conservative), without some serious [longitudinal studies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_study). Conservatives today claim long time skepticism about the Iraq War after all. Along the same lines, libertarians are a minuscule portion of the population so I can’t assume that they all phonies either. I’m saying that given the 180 degree flip in conservative stated belief in 2016, it would be wrong to take their words seriously, without evaluating behavior. Finally, paleolibertarians of the 1990s have a lot of continuity with Trumpism, so that extremist fraction of a faction can be said to have stable beliefs, notwithstanding their long time barking about freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/238 "2024-05-27T02:32:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Libertarians today are nothing like _they claimed to be_ back then. Trump is nothing like he claims to be, either. They should get along swimmingly. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/239 "2024-05-27T06:07:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Finally, paleolibertarians of the 1990s have a lot of continuity with Trumpism, so that extremist fraction of a faction can be said to have stable beliefs, notwithstanding their long time barking about freedom. The 1990s were way too far along in the history of libertarianism to be described as “paleo,” regardless of what they choose to call that particular sect of themselves, the [Libertarian Party of the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)) was founded in 1971. But the Libertarians have always had problems with being what they actually described themselves as or thought of themselves as. Witness [Libertarian claims of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism as being a core part of their beliefs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_and_libertarianism). And what were Ayn’s feelings about Libertarians holding her up as their idol? > Of libertarians, Rand said: > > > They’re not defenders of capitalism. They’re a group of publicity seekers. […] Most of them are my enemies. […] I’ve read nothing by Libertarians (when I read them, in the early years) that wasn’t my ideas badly mishandled—i.e., the teeth pulled out of them—with no credit given.[[18]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_and_libertarianism#cite_note-Q&A-18) > > In a 1981 interview, Rand described libertarians as “a monstrous, disgusting bunch of people” who “plagiarize my ideas when that fits their purpose”.[[18]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_and_libertarianism#cite_note-Q&A-18) > > Responding to a question about the Libertarian Party of the United States in 1976, Rand said: > > > The trouble with the world today is philosophical: only the right philosophy can save us. But this party plagiarizes some of my ideas, mixes them with the exact opposite—with religionists, anarchists and every intellectual misfit and scum they can find—and call themselves libertarians and run for office. This of course hasn’t stopped Libertarians as claiming Rand as one of their own ever since, her utter disgust with everything they stood/stand for notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/240 "2024-05-27T06:25:04Z")
To be fair, Ayn Rand hated everybody. I don’t see why she’d make an exception for the libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/241 "2024-05-27T13:33:01Z")
Indeed, check out this essay from Michael Shermer. [https://www.skeptic.com/reading\_room/the-unlikeliest-cult-in-history/](https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/the-unlikeliest-cult-in-history/) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/242 "2024-05-28T00:04:59Z")
From Shermer’s essay: > The cultic flaw in Ayn Rand’s philosophy of Objectivism is not in the use of reason, or in the emphasis on individuality, or in the belief that humans are self motivated, or in the conviction that capitalism is the ideal system. The fallacy in Objectivism is the belief that absolute knowledge and final Truths are attainable through reason, and therefore there can be absolute right and wrong knowledge, and absolute moral and immoral thought and action. For Objectivists, once a principle has been discovered through reason to be True, that is the end of the discussion. If you disagree with the principle, then your reasoning is flawed. If your reasoning is flawed it can be corrected, but if it is not, you remain flawed and do not belong in the group. Excommunication is the final step for such unreformed heretics. Objectivism shares the idea that final truths are attainable through reason, with Lyndon LaRouche’s followers and the Austrian School of Economics. The opposing philosophy is empiricism; the opposing practice is science. Karl Popper attacked anti-empiricism in _The Open Society and Its Enemies_. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/243 "2024-05-28T00:13:57Z")
Hell, Ayn Rand’s demand for a rational connection between tobacco smoking and cancer and scoffing at all the empirical evidence only to die of lung cancer is almost enough to prove there is an interventionist Creator who has a wicked sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/244 "2024-05-28T00:15:11Z")
I mean, a lot of truths can be reached through reason. Just, not very many political truths. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554.md?page=13)