# This is parody, right? (Meme about extreme libertarianism) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554 "2024-02-14T16:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/265 "2024-05-30T13:29:06Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > > > She was not a philosopher at all. She was a charismatic cult leader. > > Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Correct. Larry\_Borgia was stating two distinct facts. ---
**Author:** ![FluffyBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@FluffyBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FluffyBob)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/266 "2024-05-30T20:18:33Z")
When I majored in philosophy, Ayn Rand and ‘Objectivism’ were not regarded as academically robust philosophy. It was grouped with such things as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and other pop literature. It may come up in discussion but was not considered to be sufficiently rigorous. This was at a Canadian school which followed a more British tradition of analytical philosophy than American schools. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2024, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/267 "2024-05-30T23:59:09Z")
At least Robert Pirsig read Plato and Aristotle and took them seriously. His book was basically a chronicle of his own mental collapse, but I still respect him more than Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/268 "2024-05-31T00:29:50Z")
**Blasts from the past** We debated Ayn Rand’s importance in the History of Philosophy earlier this century. 2007: > [@What's The Straight Dope on Objectivism?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-the-straight-dope-on-objectivism/389983/64): > > Critics of fiction note that Ayn Rand beats the reader over the head with the most contrived cardboard characters, but grant that her work may have some philosophical value. Philosophers note that she uses straw-man arguments, but demure in judging Rand’s literary qualities. Neither will inveigh upon her economics. > > Economists note that any argument for libertarianism better have at least a passing notion of market failure. But maybe Rand’s work has some philosophical or literary merit. And back in 2002, a poster asked [What contribution, if any, did Ayn Rand make to philosophy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-contribution-if-any-did-ayn-rand-make-to-philosophy/120084)? The poster AynRandLover and the poster Libertarian seemed to think it was substantial. (The first would later change his handle to erislover; the second changed his username to Liberal. I was going by the name flowbark at the time, a name picked at random.) ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/269 "2024-05-31T02:05:02Z")
I’m much too lazy right now to dredge through posts so ancient that they involved **Liberal/Libertarian** , but I’m about 90% sure he had no idea Ayn Rand despised libertarians. Like I said, I couldn’t tell you how many libertarians I’ve interacted with over my life who were completely clueless that their idol despised them and everything they stood for. If anything is cult-like, it’s how much libertarianism has managed to bury that fact from itself and hold her up as their champion for four decades after her death. Oh, and I’m also much too overjoyed at the moment by guilty on all 34 counts for TFG. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/270 "2024-05-31T02:39:58Z")
Not that it matters, but Libertarian seemed aware of Rand’s hostility. > [@What contribution, if any, did Ayn Rand make to philosophy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-contribution-if-any-did-ayn-rand-make-to-philosophy/120084/41): > > She called libertarians “hippies of the right” and “anarchists”. See “Brief Summary,” The Objectivist, September 1971 and “What Can One Do?” _Philosophy: Who Needs It_, both by Ayn Rand. Also, see “Libertarianism: The Perversion of Liberty,” by Peter Schwartz in the Ayn Rand collection, _The Voice of Reason_. > > Her principle living disciple, Harry Binswanger, with whom I’ve corresponded on more than one occasion, said: > > > [@](#): > > > > The “libertarians”…plagiarize Ayn Rand’s principle that no man may initiate the use of physical force, and treat it as a mystically revealed, out-of-context absolute… In the philosophical battle for a free society, the one crucial connection to be upheld is that between capitalism and reason. The religious conservatives are seeking to tie capitalism to mysticism; the “libertarians” are tying capitalism to the whim-worshipping subjectivism and chaos of Binswanger’s sectarian anger reminds me of the LaRouchites I occasionally encountered. Sam Stone (who has denied being a Libertarian and expressed skepticism of the Lib. Party upthread) also caught the distinction: > [@What contribution, if any, did Ayn Rand make to philosophy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-contribution-if-any-did-ayn-rand-make-to-philosophy/120084/17): > > Oh, and she does not believe that ‘personal desires’ are the valid basis for decision-making. This idea is another misunderstanding of her work. She was opposed to anarchism, and she was opposed to hedonism. She even hated Libertarians. But you’d know that, since you’ve actually read what she has to say, right? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/271 "2024-05-31T03:38:48Z")
> [@What contribution, if any, did Ayn Rand make to philosophy?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-contribution-if-any-did-ayn-rand-make-to-philosophy/120084/41): > > She called libertarians “hippies of the right” Heh, I’ve also heard libertarians described as “hippies with guns”. Which is actually rather appealing to me. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/272 "2024-05-31T13:39:04Z")
It’s still so weird to me that people take Ayn Rand seriously as a philosopher. Not just her cult followers, that’s to be expected, but other people, including people who don’t like her. She’s never produced a serious work of philosophy, never engaged with any other philosopher. She is a polemicist and a pop fiction writer. Again, her disagreement with libertarians had nothing to do with ideas. Libertarians failed to feed her ravenous ego, so she hated them. Rand was incapable of reason herself. All her ideology was based on venom and slogans. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/273 "2024-05-31T18:16:37Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > It’s still so weird to me that people take Ayn Rand seriously as a philosopher. Not just her cult followers, that’s to be expected, but other people, including people who don’t like her. She’s never produced a serious work of philosophy, never engaged with any other philosopher. She is a polemicist and a pop fiction writer. Rand’s stock has been falling over the past 20 years. As I noted in 2002, thick encyclopedias of philosophy don’t mention her: her defenders argued that this was anti-conservative bias in academia, which I refuted by showing examples of highly respected academics who happened to be conservative. As I depict it, the conversation pivoted to _should_ Rand be taken seriously. Quibble: You can be a thinker that shoots from the hip like Nietzsche or Camus and inspire volumes of philosophical commentary. Some of Rand’s fans have attempted to do the same: they got funding of course, but they didn’t get much traction. I lack the philosophic chops to properly distinguish between sloppy thinkers deserving of philosophic scrutiny and the other kind. Except to the extent that Rand was all huff and puff, like Lyndon LaRouche. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/274 "2024-06-14T20:07:38Z")
FWIW, and because I think the author deserves the shares, here’s a link to the start of Bret Devereaux (A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry)'s articles on how _non-state_ peoples in Roman times organized for war. Devereaux uses a specific definition of non-state: that there is little or no idea of government or rulership as impersonal institutions, as opposed to systems of loyalty to various leaders. As Bret makes clear, this does NOT mean an absence of laws or enforceable customs, rulers, or organized coercion. > **[Collections: How to Raise a Tribal Army in Pre-Roman Europe, Part I:...](https://acoup.blog/2024/06/07/collections-how-to-raise-a-tribal-army-in-pre-roman-europe-part-i-aristocrats-retainers-and-clients/)** > > For the next few posts, I want to take a look at how some ‘tribal’ peoples raised armies, in contrast to the way that ancient (or later) states raised armies. As moderns, we are so fami… ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/275 "2024-06-15T22:19:23Z")
I started out writing that I was unimpressed by Devereqaux’s post, because he didn’t discuss how any local Big Man will have soldiers, sometimes full time, under his command. But then he goes into exactly that in Part II. > **[Collections: How to Raise a Tribal Army in Pre-Roman Europe, Part II:...](https://acoup.blog/2024/06/14/collections-how-to-raise-a-tribal-army-in-pre-roman-europe-part-ii-government-without-states/)** > > This is the second part of our (planned) three part (I) look at how some ‘tribal’ or more correctly, non-state agrarian peoples raised armies to fight the Romans (and others) in the thi… The author is making some anthropological claims: I’ll hypothesize that there are probably more modern eras of history with better records where the divide between states and Big Man enclaves can be better explored. Interesting work though. ---
**Author:** ![Bookkeeper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bookkeeper/32/281_2.png) [@Bookkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bookkeeper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/276 "2024-06-16T04:19:55Z")
Devereaux is using this period because this is his area of expertise, and one of the goals is to explain the differences of the Celtic and other cultures from how Rome and Greece functioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554.md?page=13)