# This is parody, right? (Meme about extreme libertarianism) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 14, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554 "2024-02-14T16:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/61 "2024-02-15T16:29:46Z")
I’m not defending the scheme laid out in the OP because if anything it sounds to me too much like government under another name. But I did want to point out a flaw in the argument that anarcho-capitalist = corporate feudalism: namely that in the absence of a state that bans murder and private feuds, what exactly is protecting these corporation executives from assassination? If you piss off the public so badly that hundreds or thousands of people would love to see you dead, it takes an army just to safeguard your life. In fact critics of modern capitalism claim that the government is structured precisely to allow capitalist exploitation without any fear of retribution. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/62 "2024-02-15T16:29:55Z")
Crypto did occur to me. But something so inherently volatile? There HAS to be a standard valuation for it to be tied to, and SOMEBODY has to set that standard. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/63 "2024-02-15T16:32:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > But I did want to point out a flaw in the argument that anarcho-capitalist = corporate feudalism: namely that in the absence of a state that bans murder and private feuds, what exactly is protecting these corporation executives from assassination? If you piss off the public so badly that hundreds or thousands of people would love to see you dead, it takes an army just to safeguard your life. In this scheme these megacorps _have_ armies. They fill that role through their privately-funded security forces. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/64 "2024-02-15T16:41:09Z")
I think the objection is that if you need the army to protect yourself, who is left to enforce your dictates? And the answer is - look to history. There’s a pyramid. There’s not just the one king at the top. There are several layers of vassal lords who look to the peons. Killing just one or a few are insufficient, and they have heirs. And you put barriers in place to prevent the people from sufficiently organizing. Hundreds of thousands of people don’t spontaneously group themselves into an effective army. Sure, each person may have a serious grievance but getting all those people to cooperate sufficiently to effect change - thereby effectively creating their own sort of government - is non-trivial and itself also defeats the purpose of some kind of anarcho-capitalist system. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/65 "2024-02-15T16:41:25Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > The poor get screwed, of course The best social experiment we have in libertarianism is in Burning Man. You have to be fucking rich to go there and survive. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/66 "2024-02-15T16:46:13Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > In this scheme these megacorps _have_ armies. They fill that role through their privately-funded security forces. Like I said, too much like government by a different name. As I see it, any sort of libertarian or anarchist non-state society would require most of the populace to zealously adhere to an almost saintly standard: an absolute renunciation of any right to forcibly coerce others except in the extremis of self-defense. And to universally band together to oppose any proto-government warlords who might violate that standard. The virtual impossibility of doing that is why we don’t see non-state societies anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/67 "2024-02-15T16:50:25Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Like I said, too much like government by a different name. Complete agreement. In these scenarios, the corporations are absolutely governments, they’re just given a different name. But they have rules they enforce and people are subject to compliance with those corporations, or they face consequences. It’s just a different form of government. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/68 "2024-02-15T16:53:21Z")
Well, of course. That seems to be the way it works with a lot of these brilliant “new” ideas these cranks come up with - worse versions of things we already have that will somehow work better because _mumble, mumble magic of the market_ ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/69 "2024-02-15T17:01:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > > [@Lumpy](#): > > > > Like I said, too much like government by a different name. > > Complete agreement. In these scenarios, the corporations are absolutely governments, they’re just given a different name. But they have rules they enforce and people are subject to compliance with those corporations, or they face consequences. It’s just a different form of government Which speaks to the point I made that I want to expand upon: selfish, greedy people will form power hierarchies to exploit others if they can, and if nothing else these power structures produce coordination- government is basically the Borg Collective that assimilates anything that can’t resist. So a passive absence of government can’t last; there would have to be an active anti-government principle at work, which was at least as good at organization but which wouldn’t itself degenerate into a government. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/70 "2024-02-15T17:04:09Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > But I did want to point out a flaw in the argument that anarcho-capitalist = corporate feudalism: namely that in the absence of a state that bans murder and private feuds, what exactly is protecting these corporation executives from assassination? You have accurately pointed out that important people sometimes got assassinated in feudal times. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/71 "2024-02-15T17:08:59Z")
And in modern times as well. Almost like the assassination of powerful figures is not dependent on the the form of government - anarchic or not 🤔 ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/72 "2024-02-15T17:11:05Z")
Heavy is the head that wears the crown. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/73 "2024-02-15T17:11:17Z")
Reading this thread puts me in mind of Heinlein’s short story [“Coventry”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coventry_(short_story)) where an idealist discovers what a land supposedly government-free is really like. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/74 "2024-02-15T17:26:48Z")
A sizeable contingent goes to AfrikaBurn through subsidies. Not sure if it’s anything like that for Burning Man. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/75 "2024-02-15T18:02:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A sizeable contingent goes to AfrikaBurn through subsidies. Ja, sure. But then it is people pretending to be rich. Or hoping to be, or whatever. Certainly middle class and up, aside from the arseholes who bring in paid labour to put up their tents. I spend way too much! But I put up my own tent, and I help setup and take-down any structure my team has planned. It is still libertarian. No real government except the rangers, DPW and DMV (Department of Public Works, ie the toilets, and Department of Mutant Vehicles). It is also anarchy, in a way. It is a party, so people are predisposed to being nice to each other, but there really aren’t many rules about not being nice. One year, some stupid guy brought his dogs, and left them in his car because pets are not allowed. The rangers found him and ejected him very quickly. But the same year some guy brought in two horses (he rode through the Cederberg) and had sufficient food and water for them. That was allowed. Small government works, on a small scale, and especially one where the bulk of the population are in agreement. Libitarianism is for the priviledged few. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/76 "2024-02-15T18:19:00Z")
Anytime someone starts talking about how wars won’t happen because they would be “financially untenable” or whatever kind of link they want to make about how war would be economically damaging or unprofitable, all they are actually demonstrating is that they have no idea how or why wars happen. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/77 "2024-02-15T18:26:40Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > But then it is people pretending to be rich. Or hoping to be, or whatever. Naah, I’m talking about the community groups. Nothing pretend or middle class about them. > [@scudsucker](#): > > I spend way too much! My Burn this year is costing less than a weekend at Kogelberg Nature Reserve, for a whole week. You don’t have to be rich to do it. But AfrikaBurn isn’t Burning Man, and from what I understand is a lot more how BM was _intended_ to be. I’m doing an art project, and that’s being 80% subsidized. > [@scudsucker](#): > > Libitarianism is for the priviledged few. Oh, I agree with htis, fully. ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/78 "2024-02-15T18:30:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m doing an art project This is off topic, but I would like to see pictures. I am not attending this years Burn. I love the creative madness. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/79 "2024-02-15T18:38:51Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > Small government works, on a small scale, and especially one where the bulk of the population are in agreement. I’m always amused that there is literally thousands of years of philosophy on government from around and that these people are always convinced all of it–Plato and Aristotle, Chanaka and Confucius, St. Augustine and St. Aquinas, Hobbes and Locke, the rest of the Enlightenment up to the present day and everyone and everything in-between–has to be wrong and they’re totally right. That the only problem is that it just hasn’t been done right yet. Much like Bitcoin would be an amusing grift if it wasn’t using tons of power and creating tons of pollution to make something of zero actual value. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2024, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554/80 "2024-02-15T18:41:59Z")
I’ll post them in the Craft Projects thread, after the Burn, sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-parody-right-meme-about-extreme-libertarianism/997554.md?page=5)