# This is sad - teacher pay **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 6, 2024, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172 "2024-05-06T02:20:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/101 "2024-05-08T17:16:29Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Just between you, me, and the ears in the walls, did the teacher deserve to be fired? Was their performance unsatisfactory? And, if so, were they given a PIP soon after? No she did not deserve to be fired. She wasn’t so bad that she needed to be out of the classroom but she did need to improve. Yes the next year she got the PIP, improved and kept her job. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/102 "2024-05-08T17:17:13Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Contrast that to teachers, in which schools are evidently going short-staffed instead of raising teacher pay. Certain special interest groups want to make it legal for Paraprofessionals (teacher aides) to teach full time and alone, which currently is illegal because aides do not have anywhere near the educational training nor do they have any student teaching experience. In other words, instead of addressing the real problem, they want your children to have a lower quality of educator in the classroom. It hasn’t caught on for those reasons and for a few more such as the paras would expect full teacher pay and benefits and, ultimately, pension benefits. That isn’t going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/103 "2024-05-08T17:19:16Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Maybe more teachers need to unionize like the airline pilots did. Of course, there is a strong anti-union sentiment in this country, especially for public-sector employees. Thanks to SCOTUS, _Janus_ had castrated many teacher unions. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/104 "2024-05-08T17:21:07Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Re: Supply and demand—except education is funded by the government, and is a long-term investment in its citizens, and is (usually) facing no real competition, so it’s pretty far from direct supply and demand, except in the sense that different districts in an area are competing against one another for teachers. Also, politicians look at it through cost-benefit analysis. Please tell me the calculation in public school educations that if you put $X in you get $Y back. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/105 "2024-05-08T17:27:37Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > insane policies regarding students with special needs or behavior issues, My three children and at least one of my grandchildren were just devalued. Shame on what you wrote and the assumptions behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/106 "2024-05-08T17:32:34Z")
Hm. I’m not entirely sure what you think I meant, but I highly doubt it is actually what I meant. Unless the phrases “special needs” or “behavior issues” are now verboten, in which case I learned something today. ETA: But, of course, my sincere apologies if you felt that I somehow devalued anybody. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/107 "2024-05-08T17:46:20Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I talk to lots of teachers, and compensation generally isn’t actually the reason they quit (or are thinking about quitting) - it’s all of the other crap that comes with teaching these days. Insane mandates from administration, insane parents that expect you to do everything while they do nothing, insane policies regarding students with special needs or behavior issues, growing class sizes with an ever-increasing list of required mandatory testing, etc… Sure, but it is all that BS in relation to the compensation. Double teacher pay, more would stay despite all that. I work for a district that has a pay for performance scheme, and my salary is a hair over 100k a year for 205 work days. I 100% promise you I would have left my job at sone point in the last 5 years. I would have said i was leaving because I had a horrible boss, because i did, but making 20% more than I would is really what kept me there. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/108 "2024-05-08T17:52:06Z")
Ypu are thinking of the school as the supplier (of education). Im talking about the school as the demander in the labor market. People are saying teachers “should” be happy being paid X, and its greedy or lazy to want more, considering whatever factors. Im saying that what people think teachers should be happy with is irrelevant. If I can’t find anyone willibg to mow my lawn for $10/hour, that means Im paying too little, not that landscapers are acting incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/109 "2024-05-08T18:08:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And a bartender doesn’t have to pay for the booze to serve to the customers. I just got this, good point. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/110 "2024-05-08T18:29:12Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Even in Corporate America, you can’t just randomly fire someone - you have to prove cause Every Corporate America job I’ve had is at-will. In my current role, I can also just say we don’t need someone. We pay them for two weeks. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/111 "2024-05-08T18:33:46Z")
There is no discusion about whether youll be opening yourself up to any sort of liability? At all? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/112 "2024-05-08T18:37:21Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Even in Corporate America, you can’t just randomly fire someone - you have to prove cause; Depends on what you mean exactly - in every state except Montana you can legally be fired for any reason or no reason at all, just not an illegal reason unless you have a contract (implied or explicit) that says otherwise. > [@MandaJo](#): > > There is no discusion about whether youll be opening yourself up to any sort of liability? At all? That’s really only an issue if it will look like you are firing them for an illegal reason. But that’s discussion within a company - just because it’s legal for a manager to fire someone just because he doesn’t like the yellow tie he wore doesn’t mean that the manager’s manager will allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/113 "2024-05-08T18:55:02Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > > [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > > > Even in Corporate America, you can’t just randomly fire someone - you have to prove cause; > > Depends on what you mean exactly - in every state except Montana you can legally be fired for any reason or no reason at all, just not an illegal reason unless you have a contract (implied or explicit) that says otherwise. Every job I’ve had, there was a series of things you had to go through with HR before you could fire someone - unless there was “downsizing” or “rightsizing” or whatever euphemism they use for layoffs (BTW - schools “rightsize” all the time, especially with support staff). Boss can’t just say “I don’t like the way you look - you’re fired.” _Theoretically_, you may be right, and I suppose that in small businesses, when Cousin Ralph needs a job, you can fire Joe Nobody for no reason, but there’s no comparable situation with Teachers. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/114 "2024-05-08T19:02:36Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > It actually seems pretty low - I would expect most employers to have a vacancy each year. A single vacancy would not equal 44%, even if you only have two employees. We’re talking about a huge teaching shortage, not a single unfilled position at Vic’s House o’ Fries. > [@Jas09](#): > > Of course Compensation is the #1 reason educators plan to quit - I’m sure it’s the #1 reason given for quitting in every industry. According to [the Pew Research poll](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2024/04/04/whats-it-like-to-be-a-teacher-in-america-today/) that came out last month, > Only a third of teachers say they’re extremely or very satisfied with their job overall. About half (48%) say they’re somewhat satisfied, while 18% say they are not too or not at all satisfied with their job. > > Compared with all U.S. workers (across different industries and occupations), teachers express much lower job satisfaction. [In a Center survey conducted in early 2023](https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2023/03/30/how-americans-view-their-jobs/), 51% of all employed adults said they were extremely or very satisfied with their job overall. > [@Jas09](#): > > I talk to lots of teachers, and compensation generally isn’t actually the reason they quit (or are thinking about quitting) > You’re arguing that your sample is representative. It’s not. I taught in my district 25 years and am still in touch with many of my former colleagues. My sample also isn’t representative. But Pew Research is: > > When we asked teachers how satisfied they are with various aspects of their job, we found that teachers get the most satisfaction from their relationship with fellow teachers and **the least satisfaction from how much they’re paid.** [Bolding mine.] It makes sense, then, that the dissatisfaction with pay would be the main reason teachers would leave. You’re right that there are many contributing factors to teachers’ dissatisfaction with their jobs, though. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/115 "2024-05-08T19:04:25Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I’m sure it’s the #1 reason given for quitting in every industry. Nope. Studies have repeatedly shown people quit managers not jobs. Other studies show people value recognition for their work above money. I see a lot of teachers leave the profession in the first three years and it is typically about workload and having to deal with students and parents with no support from admin or worse - they take the side of the parent because fuck teachers. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/116 "2024-05-08T19:11:49Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > There is no discusion about whether youll be opening yourself up to any sort of liability? At all? HR and Legal are in the work stream so I’m sure _somebody_ discusses it. Probably a lot in some cases. Just never where I’ve been directly involved. We do contract work and headcount changes are common. If we lose my primary client I suspect I’ll be out. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/117 "2024-05-08T19:12:34Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > A single vacancy would not equal 44%, even if you only have two employees. I think maybe I’m misreading the stat then. I took it to mean that 44% of all districts had at least one vacancy. Surely it can’t mean that 44% of all jobs are unfilled. I know the district I am in often starts a school year with an unfilled teaching position, which is filled by a long-term sub until a full-time teacher can be hired. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Nope. Studies have repeatedly shown people quit managers not jobs. Interesting. Although I will counter that insufficient compensation the #1 reason given by doctors for quitting, not a profession known for low pay. (cite: [The Top Reasons Why Your Physicians Are Leaving | PracticeMatch](https://www.practicematch.com/employers/recruitment-articles/the-top-reasons-why-your-physicians-are-leaving.cfm)). Other surveys do show slightly different results, of course. But yeah, your comment about early-career flame-out seems spot-on. I think a lot of would-be teachers just don’t know what they are getting into and it doesn’t take too long for them to realize it’s not a good fit. Add in (potentially) low pay and it’s easy to see why they would bail to something else. Clearly there are multiple issues at play here, and paying teachers more (at least in many markets) has to be part of the solution. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/118 "2024-05-08T19:24:19Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > I think maybe I’m misreading the stat then. I took it to mean that 44% of all districts had at least one vacancy. The statistic in question was: - 44% of public schools **posted teaching vacancies in early 2022** I also took it to mean that 44% of public schools have at least one vacancy, which I agree may not be all that notable. What is notable to me is that the time frame is “early 2022,” which is in the middle of the academic school year. Which looks like a lot of schools have teachers quitting in the middle of the school year right after the holidays. > [@Jas09](#): > > …Surely it can’t mean that 44% of all jobs are unfilled. In any event, the very next statistic was: - 43% of educator job postings are **going unfilled** ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/119 "2024-05-08T19:30:36Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Nope. Studies have repeatedly shown people quit managers not jobs. Other studies show people value recognition for their work above money. I see a lot of teachers leave the profession in the first three years and it is typically about workload and having to deal with students and parents with no support from admin or worse - they take the side of the parent because fuck teachers. I’m a data point of one, of course, but in my case it was dissatisfaction and not salary. Specifically for me, it was the feeling of being micromanaged. I got to the point where I had to ask, “I’ve got ten years experience, a master’s degree and I’m published in my field. At what point are you going to trust me to make a few decisions?” In my time in education I saw a trend toward dictating how teachers taught. Not just setting curriculum, which is appropriate, but how it was delivered in the classroom. What’s the point of training teachers or letting them use their individual strengths if you’re just going to hand them a script? There were also the usual other problems. But on the whole I was OK with my salary / benefits, while I came to be very unhappy with how I was treated. Earlier someone compared teachers to airline pilots - it so happens I’ve been both (I went into aviation after teaching). They’re very different professions and hard to compare. But one thing I noticed was that the goals were very clear in aviation, not so much in education. At the worst flight company, the goal is still always to fly safely. Even the dimmest bulb in the pilot group understands that, if they don’t always agree on the methods. While in teaching I always felt the goals were murky and never quite agreed upon. We’ve all heard the expression about how little things become important when the stakes are too low. That rang true for me as a teacher, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172/120 "2024-05-08T22:30:02Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Yes, my wife works in a special needs classroom and is (basically) making minimum wage to be bitten, scratched, and peed on on a daily basis. **And she loves it.** I’m hearing this in Maxwell Smart’s voice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-sad-teacher-pay/1001172.md?page=7)