# This is so incredibly assholish, I was certain it was an urban legend. It wasn't. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2002, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404 "2002-11-12T07:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/81 "2002-11-16T00:45:16Z")
Y’know what? I had thought to perhaps try and defend my post but there’s no need. The posters after me, including, \*\* december\*\*, **Libertarian!** and **Monty** have done a good enough job of explaining reality to the anal sphincters that seem to inhabit these topics. Regardless of what any of you say, I will still encourage all of my children, be they male or female, to enter the military for the sole reason that **someone** needs to protect our ideals and freedom **AND** your rights to deny them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/82 "2002-11-16T00:46:18Z")
BTW, this past Monday was a federal holiday in the United States–Veterans Day. So, gigi, did you take the day off? ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/83 "2002-11-16T00:56:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*BTW, this past Monday was a federal holiday in the United States–Veterans Day. So, gigi, did you take the day off? \*\* I did! Then again, I spent (literally) most of the day crying for lost friends. Can any of **you** say the same? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/84 "2002-11-16T01:08:23Z")
Fenris: I’m with you on this. Actually, I think the guy’s going to get canned. His webpage lists “moral act” as his primary view of teaching. Well, his peers who are reviewing his tenure status get to decide if his latest stunt qualifies as moral. To his credit, the prof did volunteer to have this done earlier than scheduled. Xploder: Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/85 "2002-11-16T01:19:59Z")
Do we owe any of our freedom to the scientists and engineers that create the technology that makes the US military as what it is? ---
**Author:** ![Jaakko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@Jaakko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaakko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/86 "2002-11-16T02:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jackmannii \* > \*\* > And I am puzzled by the need of the Finns on this board to evoke stereotypes to highlight their philosophic differences. Though you sound a little less nuts than **Henry B** , the Karelian King of Godwin. > > I don’t see much in this thread about people wanting to end this guy’s career. The public embarassment is enough for most people who found his tone and statements offensive. > > Somehow, I doubt that if a Finnish professor at the time of the Russian invasion had issued an intemperate denunciation of his country’s military, he’d be covered with garlands of flowers. America is fighting one undeclared war and may soon be involved in another, so respect for the military is taken seriously. Some people have the sense to separate their opposition to the Bush Administration from their feelings about our armed forces. \*\* I knew I shouldn’t have used such a general term as “many Americans”, even though in the context of this thread I felt it was accurate. Sorry about that. Do you feel that prior to the WTC attacks, the professor would have gotten away with it? As for people wishing further ill to the prof’s career, you are entirely correct that there aren’t that many posters saying that. Which is why I said “some” are doing it. Again, apologies if it wasn’t exact enough. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/87 "2002-11-16T03:35:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Waverly \* > \*\*Says who? Last I checked, law was a social construct. Man is simply a thoughtful animal, and removed from rules of his own creation, only the laws of physics govern his actions. > > Calling rights ‘God given’ is a nice sentiment, but the Constitution seems to be lacking His signature. \*\* If _you_ want to believe your rights are bestowed upon you by government, _knock yourself out_. _ **My** _ rights are not a “gift” from the state. They likewise didn’t come from “The People” or our “Founding Lawyers.” My rights were given to me by my Creator. And if you disagree – _fine_. I really don’t give a shit. it won’t change my opinion in the slightest… ---
**Author:** ![quarx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/50afbb/32.png) [@quarx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quarx)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/88 "2002-11-16T22:00:17Z")
After reading this, I put this guy’s name into the search engine, and [this](http://www.aaup.org/publications/Academe/02MJ/02MJlte.htm) is what came up. (First letter to the editor on the right hand side of the screen) The word “context”–in addition to the words “tact” and “restraint”–seem to be missing from this fuckhead’s vocabulary. Should he be fired? I don’t know. I’m honestly torn on this one. I’m an army vet and reading his e-mail got me pretty pissed off (It didn’t help that I looked at his picture and found myself thinking of Fred Rogers after he took a brown tab and found himself on a particularly bumpy ride on the magic trolley.). And yet … if they _do_ fire him, doesn’t that just confirm what everybody seems to be saying about the absence of free speech on campuses? I know that firing him wouldn’t be violating his first amendment rights, but I still find it a grey area, and stifling speech in any form just doesn’t seem right, especially if it was speech within a private e-mail. Look, everyone knows this guy is a fuck in a sweater. Everyone knows that his university knows it, too. I say, keep this guy on, so that he can face his students in shame for however long he lasts at this place. I’m sure there’s a campus paper. Every Veteran’s Day, his little e-mail can trotted out for the freshmen in some letter to the editor, just so that everyone can see what a swell guy they have in Dr. Kirstein. In the interests of free speech, students could be allowed to write this guy vocally and often, demanding to know where he gets off breathing their oxygen. Let him face the consequences of his actions on his own. I don’t think he’ll stick it out for very long. Then he’ll be gone, and no one will have forced him out because of what he said, and he won’t be a martyr, even in his own mind. Just a thought. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/89 "2002-11-16T22:55:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > My rights were given to me by my Creator. And if you disagree – _fine_. I really don’t give a shit. it won’t change my opinion in the slightest… Crafter: Well, that’s not really a well-founded opinion, though, is it? It’s essentially a repetition of what you’ve heard, no doubt, numerous times but haven’t really considered the implications of such a stance. And what if there’s no Creator? As for my rights, I view them as existing as any other idea exists. All that the government does is recognize that those rights exist and the manner in which the body politic of this country forces the government to make such recognition is the Constitution. quarx: Interesting link. Did you notice that the prof decided to put the word _terrorism_ in quotes? Looks to me like he has a problem with observing reality. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2002, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/90 "2002-11-16T23:30:55Z")
Why is your _opinion_ any better founded than his, Monty? Personally, I think he holds a quite well-founded opinion for reasons I’ve explained a hundred times. If you don’t want to claim ownership of your mind and body, that’s fine. But if you think you can claim ownership of mine, you’ve gone too far. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/91 "2002-11-17T01:33:53Z")
And where exactly, Lib, did I not claim ownership of my mind and body? Where did I claim ownership of yours? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/92 "2002-11-17T01:45:45Z")
As to my opinion: Well, first I’ve considered what are the implications if those rights are dependent upon being granted by a supernatural power. In that case, then they’re merely a whim, and not something I deserve as a living, thinking, rational being. Then I considered what the implications would be if there were no supernatural power granting those rights. In that case, they must either exist as actual objects themselves or as mental constructs, ideas. They’re obviously not physical objects; therefore, they’re ideas. Each right is a mental construct, something that I believe I have. Then I went back to considering the idea that those rights were dependent upon some supernatural power. Now, not everyone has the same rights: there are those in North Korea who have none of the ones I consider to exist for me in the US. That then means that neither Nature or some deity, assuming that’s the granting power for them, is merely capricious. Not only has that power granted a certain set of rights to me, but it’s withheld them from others based on geographic place. Finally, I came to the conclusion that the set of rights I hold is not only a mental construct, but also a social construct. This construct is recognized by my government because the people who comprise the society of which I am a part demand it. So, my opinion is one that I did not just regurgitate; it’s one I came up with my own after due thought. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/93 "2002-11-17T01:47:45Z")
In my posting above, please mentally construct “neither” as “either.” Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/94 "2002-11-17T02:17:17Z")
So, **Lib** , how does nature give us a right to property (we’ll start with this one since I’d prefer to pin the argument down and property seems to be considered a basic right)? And if nature gives us this right, wouldn’t it be inviolable? **Especially** in the natural (read: non-human) world? Watch any nature program and you can see that property belongs to the organism(s) that are strong enough to take it and keep it, not some sort of philosophical construct that says that those who labor for something ought to have a right to keep it. That view is something humans have developed on their own and have agreed makes sense societally. It comes not from nature, but from men. Should the society change its collective mind, then guess what…you don’t have that right anymore. Same with all other rights. ---
**Author:** ![galen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecc23a/32.png) [@galen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/95 "2002-11-17T16:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Soldiers protect rights. But God or nature is their source. A soldier might defend your family; but that doesn’t mean that your family came from the soldier. \*\* Which soldiers? All soldiers? German soldiers in the Great War who wore belt buckles engraved “Gott mit uns” or those across the no man’s land blessed by the pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury? How about Hitler’s soldiers? Stalin’s. How about US soldiers in Vietnam? It is not soldiers per se; it is the political forces behind them which determine whether their cause is just. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/96 "2002-11-18T12:14:28Z")
Did you just whoosh yourself? Or am I confused as usual? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/97 "2002-11-18T12:25:07Z")
Neurotik asked: > [@](#): > > So, Lib, how does nature give us a right to property Were you born? When you were, did you have a body? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/98 "2002-11-18T12:26:31Z")
Galen asked: > [@](#): > > Which soldiers? Soldiers who protect rights. Were you not taught that, when reading for comprehension, to consider context? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/99 "2002-11-18T12:47:18Z")
Yes and yes. Please continue. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/100 "2002-11-18T14:34:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by particlewill \* > \*\*The Founding Fathers were only able to establish those rights after the blood of soldiers was spilled, and those rights continue to stand because Soldiers, airmen, and seamen all serve to protect them. And any history teacher worth his salt should know that. \*\* Nonsense, take a look at Costa Rica. It willingly gave up its army to be an example of peace. Surrounded by unstable, often land-hungry governments, it still remains independent, and is as free as the United States. Armies don’t defend rights, they defend governments, and that’s not quite the same thing. Another thing is that any history teacher worth his salt (i.e. one who is aware of modern examination of the American Revolution without jingoism) would know that the Founding Fathers can be seen as little different than guerilla revolutionaries who took it upon themselves to seek an perhaps unwise independence. UnuMondo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404.md?page=6)