# This is so incredibly assholish, I was certain it was an urban legend. It wasn't. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 12, 2002, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404 "2002-11-12T07:07:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/101 "2002-11-18T16:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Yes and yes. Please continue. \*\* Continue what, your grammar lesson? When you have a body, you possess it. That makes your relation to your body genitive. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/102 "2002-11-18T18:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Xploder \* > \*\*Personally, as a veteran, I fail to understand why this person is allowed to teach the youth of our country. I have no problem with anyone being an avowed pacifist, but to call a **volunteer** member of **any** branch of the military a “babykiller” is, and remains, reprehensible. \*\* I will assume then that your comment later about anal sphincters refers only to the latter. I didn’t mean to imply by my post that I agreed with the vitriol in the professor’s letter, just that I don’t believe in war and can’t respect the choice to be involved in the military. I’m disappointed in the level of intolerance a pacifistic view is receiving here, but I am hoping it’s only because of the style of the original message being pitted. I did not get Veteran’s Day off from my employer but I would have taken it off if offered, because the business would be closed. Atheists take Christmas off too; doesn’t seem relevant to the discussion, although it does frighten me that Veteran’s Day was referred to like a “holy day” in another thread. I will admit that I am as ignorant of military actions as Monty implies I am, if only because I can’t stand to read about them. I can’t bring myself to give up idealism on this one, so I will shut up as it has nowhere to go. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/103 "2002-11-18T20:05:08Z")
gigi: So then you admit to speaking of that which you know nothing about. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/104 "2002-11-18T23:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Continue what, your grammar lesson? When you have a body, you possess it. That makes your relation to your body genitive. \*\* Awfully belligerent for someone who has yet to lay out an argument. So far you have established that property exists. I assumed that you were going to go on from there and explain why we have a natural right to it. Apparently you did not. Just for the record, I’ve never voiced an opposition to the fact that property exists. Nor even that we have a right to it…only where that right comes from. You have yet to establish a link between our being born with property and our right to keep it. By the way, let’s agree on what we are debating. I am defining the “natural right to property” as meaning that it is natural for those that have constructed, established or been born into it to keep that property without it being taken without compensation. I argue that this situation exists because humans have decided that it **should** exist. My argument that this is so is that if you look into the animal kingdom, for the most part, this attitude does not exist. Lions frequently steal the food from the cheetah that made the kill. Animals fight over territory. Indeed, the only species that appears to believe that you have a right to property absent the strength to keep it is humans. Therefore, this is a human established concept and that our “right to property” is a man-made construct. If you have a different definition, please say so and perhaps we are arguing about nothing. And please don’t take this to mean that I don’t enjoy and thoroughly believe that a right to property is extremely important and good. I do. I am just under no illusions as to where that right originates. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/105 "2002-11-19T03:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gigi \* > \*\*I will assume then that your comment later about anal sphincters refers only to the latter. \*\* Well, since what I said was: > [@](#): > > The posters after me, including, december, Libertarian! and Monty have done a good enough job of explaining reality to the anal sphincters that seem to inhabit these topics. You can assume anything that you like. > [@](#): > > I didn’t mean to imply by my post that I agreed with the vitriol in the professor’s letter, just that I don’t believe in war and **can’t respect the choice to be involved in the military**. I’m disappointed in the level of intolerance a pacifistic view is receiving here, but I am hoping it’s only because of the style of the original message being pitted. [bolding mine] Well, just who **would** you call on to defend you and yours if **your** town were to be attacked? The local cops? Right. They do such a great job of preventing crime now that I’m sure that they’d be just great repelling an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/106 "2002-11-19T04:07:43Z")
Well, if **gigi** can’t respect the choice to be involved in the military, surely others are entitled to not respect the choice to be a pacifist and speak their mind accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/107 "2002-11-19T04:42:40Z")
And all seem to be skipping the fact that if this guy keeps teaching, he is not working with us old and cynical adults but kids fresh from high school. They will prolly not be full of shame for what he has done, but hold him up as a hero. He will not affect the Air force Academy much, but he does affect how many young minds a semester? There are way to many people running around today who do not think that they can be held accountable for their free speech. I think a lot of the fault for this is due to where we are right now, an impersonal and anonymous medium where we are protected for our actions. Just how many would be willing to gather in a quiet wooded glade with everyone from this thread present, with no police, or cameras and get in all the same faces with the same words and be surprised at what happens to walk in the door we have all opened? Just how many ambulances would be needed. Never happen so no response to that idea is necessary, just might think sometime about the fact that when a person opens the door, it is too late to complain about what walks in. You all have a nice day. It was an interesting thread. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/108 "2002-11-19T05:21:38Z")
NPR just reported that the professor’s being suspended for writing the e-mail. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/109 "2002-11-19T10:43:11Z")
Woo hoo! ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/110 "2002-11-19T11:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*NPR just reported that the professor’s being suspended for writing the e-mail. \*\* I posted a link to the statement where they explain about the suspension four days ago. See page two. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/111 "2002-11-19T11:30:44Z")
Of this thread that is… ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/112 "2002-11-19T11:33:54Z")
Retroactive woo hoo! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/113 "2002-11-20T02:17:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Continue what, your grammar lesson? When you have a body, you possess it. That makes your relation to your body genitive. \*\* My stepfather owns cattle. Each cow has a body. When the cow has a body, it possesses it. That makes its relation to its body genitive. I guess each cow is the shared property of my stepfather and the cow itself. 😃 > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by galen \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > > Soldiers protect rights. But God or nature is their source. A soldier might defend your family; but that doesn’t mean that your family came from the soldier. > > Which soldiers? All soldiers? German soldiers in the Great War who wore belt buckles engraved “Gott mit uns” or those across the no man’s land blessed by the pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury? > > How about Hitler’s soldiers? Stalin’s. How about US soldiers in Vietnam? > > It is not soldiers per se; it is the political forces behind them which determine whether their cause is just. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Galen asked: > > > [@](#): > > > > Which soldiers? > > Soldiers who protect rights. Were you not taught that, when reading for comprehension, to consider context? There’s been a great deal of discussion of the value of soldiers in this thread, and I think **galen** has made an essential point here. **Lots** of countries, past and present, have or have had soldiers. Relatively few of those countries are or have had much in the way of freedoms. So to regard soldiers in general as the protectors of freedom is in error. It is, rather, the countries that shape the soldiers to be protectors of freedom, or not. To the extent that our soldiers are protectors of freedom, it is because we demand freedom. However, it’s worth repeating that they protect _our_ freedom. It is not necessarily the cause of freedom generally that our soldiers have served elsewhere in the world. Throughout most of the Cold War, for instance, our nation guarded against one particular source of oppression - the Communist world - but was quite willing to install and prop up other tyrants in order to do so. Our soldiers during that long war, whoever they were and however they became soldiers, and whatever their inner ideals may have been, were the tools of that policy, no more and no less. The soldier indeed makes many things possible. But all in all, the soldier is a tool of policymakers, whoever those policymakers are. If the soldier is lucky, the policymakers make moral choices, and the soldier fights for a good cause. From a moral perspective, that’s the best the soldier can hope for. But in no war can both sides be fighting for a moral cause, and in many wars, neither side is. That defines the odds. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/114 "2002-11-20T02:43:13Z")
Now back to the OP: first, I agree that the prof in question is not only an idiot, but an extremely rude and boorish idiot. If he’s denied tenure (assuming he doesn’t already have it), it’ll be no great loss to academia. Second, **Milo** was using this idiot as an excuse to slam a larger group, along the lines of like-minded people who used John Walker Lindh to slam Marin County liberalism, and I’ve got a problem with that: > [@](#): > > What these academia wackos, light-years out on the left and away from reality, never seem to understand is that their ability to have their ridiculous and asinine views is and always has been PRESERVED by the people they are so eager to spit on. So, **Milo** , are all business execs are like Bernie Ebbers? Should we say all soldiers are like John Allen Muhammad? Are all conservatives as loony and dishonest as Ann Coulter, Cal Thomas, and the staff of the WorldNetDummy? I wouldn’t say so. So kindly put that broad brush away, now that you’ve seen how it works in the other direction. And finally: > [@](#): > > By the way, take a look at this fucking dweeb: > www.sxu.edu/academ/artsci/history/pkirstein/ > > Nice sweater. By that standard, **Milo** , it shouldn’t bother you when I chuckle over your profession. ---
**Author:** ![Xploder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/a183cd/32.png) [@Xploder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xploder)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/115 "2002-11-21T13:35:06Z")
Well, this story managed to hit Snopes - [http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/cadet.htm](http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/cadet.htm) Interesting reading, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/116 "2002-11-21T14:12:36Z")
RT wrote: > [@](#): > > My stepfather owns cattle. Each cow has a body. When the cow has a body, it possesses it. That makes its relation to its body genitive. A political philosophy, where the term “political” comes from the term “politic”, is a philosophy about _people_, not cows. > [@](#): > > So to regard soldiers in general as the protectors of freedom is in error. That’s why I made very clear that I was talking about soldiers who defend rights. I don’t know why there would be any controversy about the kind of soldiers being talked about here: **"It is the soldier, not the reporter who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag."** — Father Dennis Edward O’Brien, Sergeant, USMC In case you didn’t know, that is the origin and context of this whole rather bizarre dispute. It’s on page 1 of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/117 "2002-11-21T20:52:10Z")
**Lib** : (1) So because we’re discussing political philosophy, the rules of grammar applying to the genitive case work differently with respect to animals? Are you saying that the use of the genitive case in the phrase ‘your body’ only implies _ownership_ of the body, if the ‘you’ is a human being? I didn’t realize politics informed the implications of grammar in such a manner. Sounds Orwellian to me. You should know, FWIW, that the root of ‘politic’ is (according to my dictionary, at least) in the Greek word for _citizen_, not _person_. So your exclusion of cattle here would seem to apply equally well to lots of categories of humans, I’m afraid: slaves, prisoners of war, illegal aliens, and maybe even legal ones. 1. It’s good to know that soldiers who defend rights, defend rights. :rolleyes: This may surprise you, **Lib** , but I read the OP. It said, in relevant part: > [@](#): > > What these academia wackos, light-years out on the left and away from reality, never seem to understand is that their ability to have their ridiculous and asinine views is and always has been PRESERVED by the people they are so eager to spit on. > > I can rattle off at least a dozen countries where such a criticism of the military would have at the least landed him in jail, at the worst landed him tortured and pushing up daisies. IOW, the dumb cluck ought to have the sense to be grateful to _our_ military, because unlike _other_ militaries in other countries, this one won’t throw him in jail or torture him to death for criticizing them. Which brings us to what I believe was part of **galen** ’s point as well as my own: the debt we owe _for_ our military being that sort of military, instead of the other kind, is owed primarily to the citizenry - us - and not the military itself. We owe them a debt - no question - but the U.S. armed forces didn’t sit down and decide one day to abandon a previously-existing military dictatorship. The U.S. military was derived from the citizenry, and to the extent that it is the protector of freedom, it is that way because we continue to insist on it. Father O’Brien has it exactly backwards, no matter what color you paint his words with; I read them the first time. It was the citizens, and continues to be the citizens, who earn the right to free speech and all the rest of it, by insisting on those rights. The soldier wouldn’t have had nearly as much in the way of First Amendment rights to defend from furriners, if the ACLU hadn’t done what it’s done to insist on those rights here. It is the citizenry who will insist on changes to the so-called Patriot Act and the authority of the Homeland Security Department if they unreasonably infringe on citizen prerogatives, and it will be citizens who take the government to court if they believe the specifics of those laws overstep the Constitution. And the soldier is out there protecting our freedoms, rather than in here, setting up a police state, because the citizens say that that’s how it will be. I’ll thank the soldier for his part in protecting us from foreign invasions, but the ultimate thanks is owed to ‘we, the people’. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/118 "2002-11-21T21:05:04Z")
RT: Our military is also part of us. That’s another good thing about it. Members of our military retain their right to vote, etc., even during their term of service. ---
**Author:** ![Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@Dreaming\_of\_Maria\_Callas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/119 "2002-11-21T21:41:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*And the soldier is out there protecting our freedoms, rather than in here, setting up a police state, because the citizens say that that’s how it will be. I’ll thank the soldier for his part in protecting us from foreign invasions, but the ultimate thanks is owed to ‘we, the people’. \*\* Well, the problem is that, while soldiers might not be doing anything against Americans, they might be committing injustice against citizens of other countries or being used to violate international law. For the record, I’m a veteran. In the tasks of my speciality in the Navy, Cryptologic Technician Interpretative (Navy linguist), I didn’t see anything protecting the American people. I did see a lot of protecting special interests and violation of privacy however. And anyway, my experience in the U.S. military has convinced that soldiers and sailors _should_ be condemned (I’m still trying to redeem myself for my service) and the military lessened into non-existence like in, for example, Costa Rica and Switzerland. This is not an necessary or desirable institution. UnuMondo ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404/120 "2002-11-21T21:46:59Z")
RT Son, you’re going to have a brain hernia if you don’t stop stretching. 😉 Yes, politics IS about people. There are no elephants in the Republican Party, and there are no jackasses in the Democrat Party. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-so-incredibly-assholish-i-was-certain-it-was-an-urban-legend-it-wasnt/136404.md?page=7)