# This is the Cecil we know and love! MLK thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 2, 2003, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613 "2003-05-02T13:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/61 "2003-05-13T21:24:14Z")
If he didn’t uncover anything new, how is it “well-researched”? If “it’s unfortunate that people sling dirt around, but it’s part and parcel of being a public figure these days,” then why is this such a “commendable” piece? Anyway, maybe this is beyond the scope of this forum. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/62 "2003-05-14T01:38:34Z")
There’s a piece on the homepage that refers to Cecil as ‘the world’s greatest reference librarian.’ I think that’s about right and maybe answers your question. But yes, you’re real issue here seems to be outside this forum. Don’t shoot the messenger. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/63 "2003-05-14T04:49:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > \*\*Quite. However, the question of appropriate phrasing should perhaps not be dismissed out of hand. “A fraud and a hypocrite,” as a label, can be used to bludgeon King’s legacy of civil rights accomplishments, in an attempt to argue that the goals and achievements of the civil rights movement were not good things in and of themselves. > > The statement, “Martin Luther King, Jr. was guilty of fraud and hypocrisy” conveys the truth of the charges under discussion with perfectly acceptable accuracy, _without_ reducing Dr. King’s essence to that of irredeemable reprobate. Nor does it give ammunition to those who would wish to do so. \*\* I agree with this post. Regarding my questions on fraud and plagarism, all the grandstanding about how bad it is is not necessary. If I ever catch a future student of mine doing it, I’ll take them to the woodshed. HOWEVER, we need to face up to the fact that a lot of phd programs in the country are VERY shoddy. Don’t know about BU divinity school back then, but I’ve seen dissertations that I wouldn’t have let pass as a seminar paper, much less qualify somebody for the final step in a PhD. It’s even worse with some MA programs. (Many of which are largely money making rackets for schools.) Thus, my point is: it was wrong to do what Cecil says MLK did on his dissertation, but if it was standard practice amongst the students/faculty there to be weak on this front (for part of the thesis, not all), I can see how a young man would do it. It doesn’t make him a fraud for life in my book. ---
**Author:** ![vodyanoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c68b51/32.png) [@vodyanoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vodyanoi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/64 "2003-05-27T16:47:52Z")
I think that the question this raises is, should there be a Martin Luther King day? Why not change it to Human Rights Day? Sure, we can say how great he was, but doesn’t this article from Cecil underline why the movement is greater than the man? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/65 "2003-05-27T23:56:45Z")
That’s an interesting question - some of the sites in question pose it as well. I say keep it. If we can celebrate the achievements of Washington, Jefferson, Columbus, etc. - heck, Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee get holidays in much of the South - we can do the same with King. Despite his flaws, the civil rights movement owes much of its success to him. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/66 "2003-05-28T17:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Thus, my point is: it was wrong to do what Cecil says MLK did on his dissertation, but if it was standard practice amongst the students/faculty there to be weak on this front (for part of the thesis, not all), I can see how a young man would do it. It doesn’t make him a fraud for life in my book. I’m sorry, but that is crap. If anybody should know that plagiarism in your dissertation is wrong, it is a Divinity student. There is no excuse whatsoever for that behavior. See my previous post. It is wrong, it was wrong, and it will continue to be wrong. Your dissertation is supposed to be a piece of original work. That is why the degree means something - it shows that you can do original research in your field. Classroom performance is immaterial once you get to that point. In fact, most Ph. D. students take very few classes; they are much more likely to attend seminars. If you can’t be trusted to do your own thesis, you can’t be trusted working in your field. While my dad was working on his Ph. D. (mycology), a woman was caught working on another student’s thesis in addtion to her own. Both students were thrown out. This would have been in the early 60’s. Just recently, a promising physicist lost his job because he was making up data. If he had been caught copying data, he would still have lost his job and his reputation. Rant aside, King’s hypocrisy and fraudelent behavior is surely “better” than say, owning slaves. Washington, the only figure in history I know who turned down the opportunity to be dictator, did emancipate his, to his credit. Jefferson was a tremendously talented man, who held great respect for Native Americans, but he clearly was a hypocrite of the first order. Still, both men were instrumental in the founding of the country. Columbus was largely responsible for what was arguably the most momentous event in the last 1000 years. He also committed genocide and was put to death. I think we should grow up and acknowledge that people who accomplish great things are often greatly flawed. Sometimes that flaw might even have been essential to their accomplishments. I think we should scrap President’s Day, MLK Day, and Columbus Day, and create a new “People who were really important to the US Day”, and have some offiicial process for getting on the list. (Why isn’t John Adams on the list. He was in the same league, and with relatively few flaws.) I’d leave Lincoln his own day, because he is such a singular individual. ---
**Author:** ![drhess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/94ad74/32.png) [@drhess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drhess)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/67 "2003-05-28T21:59:13Z")
“The only figure in history I know who turned down the opportunity to be dictator” Well, I hope you aren’t a history major… Regarding your rants on unethical academic conduct, you’re preaching to the choir, but you don’t get the fine point. Columbus started events that lead to enslavement, etc. and he was a cruel man, but I don’t think he waged genocidal wars of any kind himself. Maybe he advocated it against native, I dunno, but come’on folks, let’s get a grip… ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/68 "2003-05-29T02:54:25Z")
SlowMindThinking writes: \> Washington, the only figure in history I know who turned down \> the opportunity to be dictator, did emancipate his, to his credit. Just to name the most obvious case, there was Cincinnatus in ancient Rome, who was appointed dictator for six months. He defeated the army that was besieging Rome and then immediately quit and went back to his farm. \> He [Columbus] also committed genocide and was put to death. No, he wasn’t put to death. He died a natural death. Do you do any research before you post? ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/69 "2003-05-29T14:27:02Z")
No, I’m not a history major, but Cincinnatus took the job of dictator, which was actually a position in dire emergencies within the Roman Republic. The Roman Republic eventually morphed into the Principate when the military leaders “escaped” from the civilian control. (Even under the Principate, the Roman empire maintained the trappings of its republican government.) Comparing Washington to Sulla is more apt. Yes Columbus comitted genocide. Just google Columbus and genocide and you’ll find quotes like: > [@](#): > > The 1492 “voyage of discovery” is, however, hardly all that is however, hardly all that is > at issue. In 1493 Columbus returned with an invasion force of > seventeen ships, appointed at his own request by the Spanish Crown to > install himself as “viceroy and governor of [the Caribbean islands] > and the mainland” of America, a position he held until > 1500. Setting up shop on the large island he called Espa–ola (today > Haiti and the Dominican Republic), he promptly instituted policies of > slavery (encomiendo) and systematic extermination against the native > Taino population. Columbus’s programs reduced Taino numbers from as > many as eight million at the outset of his regime to about three > million in 1496. Perhaps 100,000 were left by the time of the > governor’s departure. This is from that noted bastion of liberal rants, MIT:[http://www.mit.edu/activities/thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html](http://www.mit.edu/activities/thistle/v9/9.11/1columbus.html) Or this quote > [@](#): > > As detailed in the American Heritage Magazine (October,1976), Columbus personally oversaw the genocide of the Taino Indian nation of what is now Haiti and the Dominican Republic. Even granted that the unintentional transmission of diseases may well have wiped out 90% of the native population in the Americas in a generation, and by extension on Haiti, that still leaves Columbus as the leader of a genocidal rule. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/70 "2003-05-29T14:59:22Z")
I was sloppy in saying that Cincinnatus turned down the chance to be a dictator. What happened was more like him taking the job of dictator in an emergency and then gaving it up promptly when the emergency was over. You were equally sloppy when you claimed that Washington turned down the chance to be a dictator, SlowMindThinking. What happened, apparently, was more like him turning down the chance to be a constitutional monarch. But I’m not sure even that really happened. Is there an expert in American history here who can tell us exactly what Washington was offered? Was there really a formal offer of a kingship to Washington, or was there just some discussion of making Washington the king that never really came to anything except just some of his friends trying to persuade other people of the idea? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/71 "2003-05-29T15:51:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I was sloppy in saying that Cincinnatus turned down the chance to be a dictator. What happened was more like him taking the job of dictator in an emergency and then gaving it up promptly when the emergency was over. Which is no more remarkable than Reagan, or GHW Bush, or Clinton, stepping down at the ends of their presidencies. It’s not that he gave up the job because the emergency was over; it’s that the position of Dictator, under Roman law, was limited to a six-month term. Even if the emergency weren’t over, he’d still have to step down, and presumably another dictator would be appointed. The Latin term closest to our modern sense of “dictator” is probably “rex”, usually translated as “king”. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613/72 "2003-05-29T22:07:20Z")
Well, it is pretty much tangential to the OP, but the best I could find is from here: [http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/taend99g.htm](http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/taend99g.htm) It contains the following excerpt: > [@](#): > > As America’s first Commander in Chief, and later her first President, Washington established our unusual balance between civilian and military authority. Previously, no modern nation had attempted to wage a war under the auspices of a democratically elected Congress. Washington thus set precedents that would characterize American experience ever after. Through the darkest days of the Civil War and the Cold War, American commanding generals would respect Washington’s examples of deference to civilian authority, the right of the Congress rather than the Commander in Chief to make final all military appointments, and so forth. I think it is important to remember that even if some form of dictatorship had not been offered to him, he might well have been able to take it, because of the loyalty of his troops. Most “president’s for life” weren’t exactly offered the job, after all. Chronos, our interests are so similar, that I’m starting to wonder if we aren’t related somehow. I thought I remembered a 6 month term, but I wasn’t going to post something based on a 20+ year old :eek: memory of one lecture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-cecil-we-know-and-love-mlk-thread/172613.md?page=3)