This is the meta-solution to ethics

[Mangetout]

@Ecmandu

You’re living in the land of the female denial system. The di-morphism problem always causes minute signs of discomfort, look for it, you will see it every time, just go into a bar and watch people… you’ll understand why there’s nice guy code if you pay enough attention to the body language.

Bars are not the only places where people interact with one another. Perhaps that’s where you’re missing the major part of the picture. The normally-functioning, non-abusive, non-coercive part.

[Human_Action]

@Ecmandu

You’re living in the land of the female denial system. The di-morphism problem always causes minute signs of discomfort, look for it, you will see it every time, just go into a bar and watch people… you’ll understand why there’s nice guy code if you pay enough attention to the body language.

Even if that were true, do you really think women don’t want men to ever approach them romantically? I mean, humans have a lot of instinctual behaviors, do you seriously suggest that we ignore all higher reasoning and be ruled by instincts, regardless of our wishes as thinking beings?

Take goose bumps. They can appear as a result of feeling intense fear, and are a remnant, whose purpose in mammals was to erect the fur, making the animal appear larger so as to intimidate predators or rivals. Would you instruct someone who loved horror movies and got goose bumps from watching them that the right thing to do would be never watch a horror movie again, that their brain stem knows better than they?

[Mangetout]

I’m waiting for the bit where you assert that most people haven’t noticed this stunning truth of which you are so sure, because it’s oh-so-subtle.

Thing is, if that’s true, it doesn’t matter. If that’s true, it’s just a piddling little thing that we can (and obviously do) ignore.

If it’s not such a little thing, why are you the only one that sees it?

[Ecmandu]

@Mangetout

I’m waiting for the bit where you assert that most people haven’t noticed this stunning truth of which you are so sure, because it’s oh-so-subtle.

Thing is, if that’s true, it doesn’t matter. If that’s true, it’s just a piddling little thing that we can (and obviously do) ignore.

If it’s not such a little thing, why are you the only one that sees it?

I have met 6 other men in my life who have the SAME EXACT CODE that I know on a deep level, and there are ALOT more in this world. Nice guy code is universal, and it’s actually a very simple code of conduct… they notice the dimorphism problem and they understand that violating the code is trying to turn a “no” into a “yes”.

Even most the assholes know the nice guy code, they just don’t care, I’ve met plenty of assholes who know nice guy code, perhaps about 10 or so… it’s not like I talk about this with everyone, because you usually don’t get to know people that well to make this a conversation worth conveying in casual settings… of course a discussion board on great debates is not a casual setting.

[Human_Action]

Here’s a question: what would your ethical society look like? If all this is hardwired, would it entail forcing women to have sex with the nice guys, or what?

[Ecmandu]

@Human_Action

Even if that were true, do you really think women don’t want men to ever approach them romantically? I mean, humans have a lot of instinctual behaviors, do you seriously suggest that we ignore all higher reasoning and be ruled by instincts, regardless of our wishes as thinking beings?

Take goose bumps. They can appear as a result of feeling intense fear, and are a remnant, whose purpose in mammals was to erect the fur, making the animal appear larger so as to intimidate predators or rivals. Would you instruct someone who loved horror movies and got goose bumps from watching them that the right thing to do would be never watch a horror movie again, that their brain stem knows better than they?

The problem with this argument about what women want is that it sends very mixed signals that in no way benefit men or women alike, if all of the sexual encounters with women are “no means yes” and “women want sexually what they complain about” you’re going to have MAJOR problems in this species, not minor ones, MAJOR ones. Like I said before, the people who do the most to prevent war and rape and social stratification and homicide and suicide and the like… if they are men, don’t get sex. Simple bahavioraism… that’s why the men act out more. It’s literally like you have 3.7 billion women doing a sit-in for world war, and if men try to prevent it, the sexual blackmail screws them up… if they engage in behaviors that re-enforce it, women will have sex with them. The problem with trying to explain this to people is that the female sexual blackmail is ABSOLUTE, the female denial system is ABSOLUTE, and that sexual blackmail BRAINWASHES men, or FORCES them to shut up.

[Ecmandu]

@Human_Action

Here’s a question: what would your ethical society look like? If all this is hardwired, would it entail forcing women to have sex with the nice guys, or what?

Honestly, you can try to appeal to their consciences, but I’m not convinced that this works… the only practical solution I can think of is to make it a legal matter (you clearly had sex with a bully, now have sex with 50 non-bullies to make up for it (altering the behaviorism) or sit in prison. It sounds totally INSANE, BUT, once you understand the impact of human sexual choice on behavior… there’s really not much else that CAN be done.

[zoid]

@Ecmandu

It sounds totally INSANE, BUT, once you understand the impact of human sexual choice on behavior… there’s really not much else that CAN be done.

It sounds insane because it IS fucking insane. The fact that you cannot get any pussy is not an ethical issue and sure as fuck should not be mandated by law.

Mods - seriously, this has gone way too far…

[Human_Action]

@Ecmandu

The problem with this argument about what women want is that it sends very mixed signals that in no way benefit men or women alike, if all of the sexual encounters with women are “no means yes” and “women want sexually what they complain about” you’re going to have MAJOR problems in this species, not minor ones, MAJOR ones.

No mixed signals: saying no means no. No need to turn into a body-language decoder (and surely you’ve noticed that not every detects this nervous energy you’re describing), women are thinking adults and can make their own decisions, just like our horror-movie fan with his goose bumps.

@Ecmandu

Like I said before, the people who do the most to prevent war and rape and social stratification and homicide and suicide and the like… if they are men, don’t get sex.

You prevent war through diplomacy, democracy, trade, and capital-intensive economies.

You prevent rape through not raping people, and prosecuting people who do.

You prevent social stratification through various economic measures.

You prevent homicide through a strong government, prosperity, and a culture of forgiveness and conciliation instead of honor.

You prevent suicide through a culture that views it is a problem, not something noble, and ensuring access to mental health care for those who need it.

Not approaching a woman you’re attracted to does jack-squat for any of these problems.

@Ecmandu

Simple bahavioraism… that’s why the men act out more. It’s literally like you have 3.7 billion women doing a sit-in for world war, and if men try to prevent it, the sexual blackmail screws them up… if they engage in behaviors that re-enforce it, women will have sex with them. The problem with trying to explain this to people is that the female sexual blackmail is ABSOLUTE, the female denial system is ABSOLUTE, and that sexual blackmail BRAINWASHES men, or FORCES them to shut up.

The behavior of asking a woman out doesn’t reinforce any of those problems. It has no connection to them whatsoever.

And once you start in on brainwashing and all that, you kill any discussion, since that’s saying that other people are incapable of understanding your points or honestly considering them. It’s an eject button, so treat it carefully.

@Ecmandu

Honestly, you can try to appeal to their consciences, but I’m not convinced that this works… the only practical solution I can think of is to make it a legal matter (you clearly had sex with a bully, now have sex with 50 non-bullies to make up for it (altering the behaviorism) or sit in prison. It sounds totally INSANE, BUT, once you understand the impact of human sexual choice on behavior… there’s really not much else that CAN be done.

And what effect do you suppose forcing women to have sex with men they don’t want to have sex with or face prison time would have on the suicide rate, in your suffering-causes-suicide model?

Also, would this be using your definition of a bully as a man who expresses romantic interest in a woman, either in her presence or to others? Because that leaves about 100 guys per country as non-bullies. They better clear their schedules!

[andros]

@Ecmandu

Sex Dimorphism (Men being bigger and more threatening than women) always causes at a minimum, minute signs of discomfort in women when men approach them with anything that suggests sexual interest relative to men who either don’t show it or show it less.

Cite please.

The only possible exception to this is that if a woman approaches a man, he may become awkward because he’s not trying to show attraction, and is giving a woman the benefit of the doubt that they are merely flirting with them to get attention (which women do and men don’t do),

Cite please.

if a woman shows attraction in her eyes towards you, she is probably flirting, and female flirting is more about attention than sexual consent,

Cite please.

Basically, women relative to men always show signs of discomfort when approached,

Cite please.

BUT the subconscious doesn’t lie

Cite please.

and part of the reason men sexually harass women on the scale that they do, is because men who violate the dimorphism code are the only ones who get sex

Cite please.

the ones who make them, slightly or majorly uncomfortable (major discomfort starts to occur when women gossip about how much of an asshole so-and-so is - where they end up having sex with them instead of people who women say are nice)

Cite please.

From the female point of view, guys that nice guys know are complete douchbags

Cite please.

the nice guys know that the woman was ill-gotten gains, and often the douchbag knows it too, but women generally are attracted to aggression so they don’t see it.

Cite please.

This is called the female denial system.

Cite please.

Hopefully that explained it better.

Nope.

sexual choice affects neuro-biology, which is actually mentally ill people causing sane people to become even more mentally ill than they otherwise would

Cite please.

the person may think that they are nice and the bully needs to make an example of them in order for women to have sex with the bully, which isn’t a completely irrational thought for a male to have.

Cite please.

Look, friend…I’m sure you have some really great and deep and meaningful ideas. But all you’ve given us here is a bunch of handwaving, anecdotal, and terribly wrongheaded assertions with no semblance of fact or evidence to support them.

I work in the social sciences. I’m plenty happy to discuss some of these issues with you. But only if you bring some evidence to support your ideas. Any evidence. At all.

[Ecmandu]

@Human_Action

No mixed signals: saying no means no. No need to turn into a body-language decoder (and surely you’ve noticed that not every detects this nervous energy you’re describing), women are thinking adults and can make their own decisions, just like our horror-movie fan with his goose bumps.

You prevent war through diplomacy, democracy, trade, and capital-intensive economies.

You prevent rape through not raping people, and prosecuting people who do.

You prevent social stratification through various economic measures.

You prevent homicide through a strong government, prosperity, and a culture of forgiveness and conciliation instead of honor.

You prevent suicide through a culture that views it is a problem, not something noble, and ensuring access to mental health care for those who need it.

Not approaching a woman you’re attracted to does jack-squat for any of these problems.

The behavior of asking a woman out doesn’t reinforce any of those problems. It has no connection to them whatsoever.

And once you start in on brainwashing and all that, you kill any discussion, since that’s saying that other people are incapable of understanding your points or honestly considering them. It’s an eject button, so treat it carefully.

And what effect do you suppose forcing women to have sex with men they don’t want to have sex with or face prison time would have on the suicide rate, in your suffering-causes-suicide model?

Also, would this be using your definition of a bully as a man who expresses romantic interest in a woman, either in her presence or to others? Because that leaves about 100 guys per country as non-bullies. They better clear their schedules!

I told you this thread would get deleted… I will get banned… or the thread will get closed… or something like that… perhaps it will get moved.

The problem is that sexual di-morphism means that approach is ALWAYS no, that’s how it works on the subconscious, for you to say that there are additional layers of consent is being intellectually dishonest. Did I not say that the female denial system is basically 3.7 billion people and female sexual blackmail with effect the other 3.3 billion men. Guys have been trying to say this shit for as long as there have been people. Wake up!

To get back to the suicide part, the solution to ethics, sexual choice will effect the neuro-biology of the species, which is why men are insane more than women.

There is a big difference between approach and sexual merit arguments. If we had the law from the beginning of time that you should argue your sexual merit before your peers and relatives to have sex, we would have an INSANELY ethical society by now, because you put the carrot of sexual choice (the selective pressure) on solving ethical equations and behaving in accordance with them… I can tell you right now, this would be a FAR better world right now, because virtually everyone would be an ethical prodigy, much smarter than I am by FAR about this stuff! As it sits right now, people couldn’t spot ethical genius if it smacked them in the face, because we don’t place selective pressure on it, not only don’t we not place selective pressure on it, we sexually de-select it.

[Human_Action]

@Ecmandu

I told you this thread would get deleted… I will get banned… or the thread will get closed… or something like that… perhaps it will get moved.

You’d only get banned for breaking SDMB rules, not for the content of your opinions.

@Ecmandu

The problem is that sexual di-morphism means that approach is ALWAYS no, that’s how it works on the subconscious, for you to say that there are additional layers of consent is being intellectually dishonest. Did I not say that the female denial system is basically 3.7 billion people and female sexual blackmail with effect the other 3.3 billion men. Guys have been trying to say this shit for as long as there have been people. Wake up!

There’s one layer of consent, and it’s positive verbal consent. Factoring in things like body language is how you empower a “She really wanted it!” defense to rape, or the less destructive but just as dysfunctional “No woman wants to be approached, ever!” theory.

I’m quite awake, thanks.

@Ecmandu

To get back to the suicide part, the solution to ethics, sexual choice will effect the neuro-biology of the species, which is why men are insane more than women.

So you claim, I know. Removing sexual choice from women seems like it’d make the problem of suicide worse, not better, under your theory of what causes suicide.

@Ecmandu

There is a big difference between approach and sexual merit arguments. If we had the law from the beginning of time that you should argue your sexual merit before your peers and relatives to have sex, we would have an INSANELY ethical society by now, because you put the carrot of sexual choice (the selective pressure) on solving ethical equations and behaving in accordance with them… I can tell you right now, this would be a FAR better world right now, because virtually everyone would be an ethical prodigy, much smarter than I am by FAR about this stuff! As it sits right now, people couldn’t spot ethical genius if it smacked them in the face, because we don’t place selective pressure on it, not only don’t we not place selective pressure on it, we sexually de-select it.

Hoo boy.

There’s no objective definition of what “sexual merit” would entail, different people are attracted to different things, though fitness, so as to produce healthy offspring and provide for them, is always pretty popular.

Ethics aren’t heritable. Ethical changes, for good or for ill, occur at vastly greater speeds than generations. You may as well try to select for good taste in art.

[Ecmandu]

@Human_Action

You’d only get banned for breaking SDMB rules, not for the content of your opinions.

There’s one layer of consent, and it’s positive verbal consent. Factoring in things like body language is how you empower a “She really wanted it!” defense to rape, or the less destructive but just as dysfunctional “No woman wants to be approached, ever!” theory.

I’m quite awake, thanks.

So you claim, I know. Removing sexual choice from women seems like it’d make the problem of suicide worse, not better, under your theory of what causes suicide.

Hoo boy.

There’s no objective definition of what “sexual merit” would entail, different people are attracted to different things, though fitness, so as to produce healthy offspring and provide for them, is always pretty popular.

Ethics aren’t heritable. Ethical changes, for good or for ill, occur at vastly greater speeds than generations. You may as well try to select for good taste in art.

Actually, MOST sex happens because of non-verbal cues. I am a person who believes all sexual assents and requests should be verbal, without ever having non-verbal aspects to it, but in reality, almost all of them are NON-VERBAL. I am also a person who believes that only women should do this, and men should NEVER do this.

Women want to be approached, but because of the dimorphism problem, they always show discomfort for approaches. I have heard more times than I can count, definitely over 100 times, “that guy is SUCH an asshole” from women before they had sex with them either a week or a month later, whether they consider themselves friends with me or not. And in these scenarios I have in those over hundred times listened to women talk about how sweet some other guy was, while not giving them sex at all (they end up being the surrogate gay friend for life). I have met many women in my life who say to me "We’re soul mates, I’m more comfortable with you than with anyone I’ve met, you’re such a good FRIEND! and then they go on about how some guy is an asshole who they are having or not having sex with, and most of the time, if they haven’t had sex with them, in a very short period of time, they will.

This is a universal experience for nice guys. Eventually they just stop hanging out with women. Nice guys don’t show attraction, so there’s never the rumor mill, that so-and-so is attracted to you… because nice guys don’t report attraction by proxy, because if it gets back to the woman, it’s the same as an approach. Nice guy code is UNIVERSAL, they always have the same traits, and they have the same traits for the same reasons. And astonishingly, LOTS of assholes know nice guy code.

Do you really think that if someone argued through society that they have more sexual merit than someone else in their community and the behaviorist consequences of not giving those people the most sexual choice, that a woman would really become depressed for having sex with them? Hell, women vary rarely commit suicide because of rape, and that’s the polar opposite of a sexual merit argument.

It’s possible that women are wired SO evilly, that if they gave the best men the most sexual choice that they would suicide, but I seriously doubt it.

Ethics are not fads man, there are ethical laws… the suicide metric is an ethical law, the suicide metric states that the more people who vote out of the system for any reason when suicide is as easy as it can possibly be, the harder the entire system will be on anyone who stays behind. The less people who commit suicide for ANY reason when suicide is as easy as it could be, the easier it will be on everyone who stays behind.

There is no contradiction for this law. It cannot be inverted and it cannot be contradicted, because both inversion and contradiction have a solution of no people. It is the meta-solution to ethics.

Cite?

[Czarcasm]

@Ecmandu

Ethics are not fads man, there are ethical laws… the suicide metric is an ethical law, the suicide metric states that the more people who vote out of the system for any reason when suicide is as easy as it can possibly be, the harder the entire system will be on anyone who stays behind. The less people who commit suicide for ANY reason when suicide is as easy as it could be, the easier it will be on everyone who stays behind.

There is no contradiction for this law. It cannot be inverted and it cannot be contradicted, because both inversion and contradiction have a solution of no people. It is the meta-solution to ethics.

Cite?

No, you need to provide a cite listing these ethical laws you claim exist.

[Human_Action]

@Ecmandu

Actually, MOST sex happens because of non-verbal cues. I am a person who believes all sexual assents and requests should be verbal, without ever having non-verbal aspects to it, but in reality, almost all of them are NON-VERBAL. I am also a person who believes that only women should do this, and men should NEVER do this.

Sure, plenty happens without explicit verbal consent, but what exactly is wrong with “No means no”, where the “No” is explicit and verbal? Assuming that all women are always saying no is like constantly spraying a fire extinguisher in front of you wherever you go: you might put out a fire or two, but there’s a better way, and your solution creates its own problems.

@Ecmandu

Women want to be approached, but because of the dimorphism problem, they always show discomfort for approaches.

So you say and can’t prove…but again, so what? We aren’t ants, dominated by instincts, we’re intelligent, reasoning beings.

Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that, on an EEG, riding a roller coaster looks the same as falling to one’s death. Does that mean anyone who enjoys riding roller coasters is a lunatic? Nope! We’re thinking beings, who can understand the difference between riding a ride and freefalling, between an uncomfortable or unwelcome advance and a welcome one, and so on.

@Ecmandu

I have heard more times than I can count, definitely over 100 times, “that guy is SUCH an asshole” from women before they had sex with them either a week or a month later, whether they consider themselves friends with me or not. And in these scenarios I have in those over hundred times listened to women talk about how sweet some other guy was, while not giving them sex at all (they end up being the surrogate gay friend for life). I have met many women in my life who say to me "We’re soul mates, I’m more comfortable with you than with anyone I’ve met, you’re such a good FRIEND! and then they go on about how some guy is an asshole who they are having or not having sex with, and most of the time, if they haven’t had sex with them, in a very short period of time, they will.

Hey, I’m sorry you’ve had these problems, but the problem isn’t with women dating who they want to date. That’s not a problem at all, in fact.

And people don’t slot into being either nice, or an asshole. They run a spectrum, in fact.

@Ecmandu

This is a universal experience for nice guys. Eventually they just stop hanging out with women. Nice guys don’t show attraction, so there’s never the rumor mill, that so-and-so is attracted to you… because nice guys don’t report attraction by proxy, because if it gets back to the woman, it’s the same as an approach. Nice guy code is UNIVERSAL, they always have the same traits, and they have the same traits for the same reasons. And astonishingly, LOTS of assholes know nice guy code.

Maybe some of these nice guys are actually asexual or gay, and aren’t able to face up to it? Or they have some sort of social disorder that keeps them from engaging other people?

@Ecmandu

Do you really think that if someone argued through society that they have more sexual merit than someone else in their community and the behaviorist consequences of not giving those people the most sexual choice, that a woman would really become depressed for having sex with them? Hell, women vary rarely commit suicide because of rape, and that’s the polar opposite of a sexual merit argument.

It’s possible that women are wired SO evilly, that if they gave the best men the most sexual choice that they would suicide, but I seriously doubt it.

I was referring to your “sex with a bully is punished with prison, or sex with 50 non-bullies” plan, actually.

But yes, I think a person can be made depressed by forcing or shaming them into a relationship they don’t want to be in. Are you a big supporter of arranged marriages? Why or why not?

And again, “sexual merit” is a wildly subjective concept, like “artistic merit”. The closest one could come would be fitness, which has precious little to do with being nice.

@Ecmandu

Ethics are not fads man, there are ethical laws…

No, there aren’t. Maxims, sure, but not laws.

@Ecmandu

… the suicide metric is an ethical law, the suicide metric states that the more people who vote out of the system for any reason when suicide is as easy as it can possibly be, the harder the entire system will be on anyone who stays behind. The less people who commit suicide for ANY reason when suicide is as easy as it could be, the easier it will be on everyone who stays behind.

There is no contradiction for this law. It cannot be inverted and it cannot be contradicted, because both inversion and contradiction have a solution of no people. It is the meta-solution to ethics.

Read the criteria for a law in that article, and tell me if this qualifies.

And yes, there’s contradictions to your maxim: all the suicides that aren’t rational, considered “votes”, for a start.

@Ecmandu

Cite?

It’s rather hard to prove a negative, but here: ethical change that’s faster than the death rate.

Feel free to provide evidence that ethics is heritable…though I’d be shocked if you were able to, because that’s pure Lysenkoism.

[Ecmandu]

@Human_Action

Sure, plenty happens without explicit verbal consent, but what exactly is wrong with “No means no”, where the “No” is explicit and verbal? Assuming that all women are always saying no is like constantly spraying a fire extinguisher in front of you wherever you go: you might put out a fire or two, but there’s a better way, and your solution creates its own problems.

So you say and can’t prove…but again, so what? We aren’t ants, dominated by instincts, we’re intelligent, reasoning beings.

Suppose (for the sake of discussion) that, on an EEG, riding a roller coaster looks the same as falling to one’s death. Does that mean anyone who enjoys riding roller coasters is a lunatic? Nope! We’re thinking beings, who can understand the difference between riding a ride and freefalling, between an uncomfortable or unwelcome advance and a welcome one, and so on.

Hey, I’m sorry you’ve had these problems, but the problem isn’t with women dating who they want to date. That’s not a problem at all, in fact.

And people don’t slot into being either nice, or an asshole. They run a spectrum, in fact.

Maybe some of these nice guys are actually asexual or gay, and aren’t able to face up to it? Or they have some sort of social disorder that keeps them from engaging other people?

I was referring to your “sex with a bully is punished with prison, or sex with 50 non-bullies” plan, actually.

But yes, I think a person can be made depressed by forcing or shaming them into a relationship they don’t want to be in. Are you a big supporter of arranged marriages? Why or why not?

And again, “sexual merit” is a wildly subjective concept, like “artistic merit”. The closest one could come would be fitness, which has precious little to do with being nice.

No, there aren’t. Maxims, sure, but not laws.

Read the criteria for a law in that article, and tell me if this qualifies.

And yes, there’s contradictions to your maxim: all the suicides that aren’t rational, considered “votes”, for a start.

It’s rather hard to prove a negative, but here: ethical change that’s faster than the death rate.

Feel free to provide evidence that ethics is heritable…though I’d be shocked if you were able to, because that’s pure Lysenkoism.

You are deluding yourself again… you are trying to abstract ANOTHER layer of consent beyond the di-morphism problem. “It’s ok if I approach them as long as when they say no, I back off.” Usually, what happens in these “no” scenarios, and it’s part of the game, though not always, is that if you “respect” the “no” they will eventually turn that “no” into a “yes”. It’s the same shit man. Nice guys all know the game, they can see all the stages, they’re just not manipulative fucks like the assholes are. They know the consequences of approaching women… and actually besides nice guys, the people who will agree with me are the honest assholes… they’ll actually say the same things I’m saying… they approach women because they KNOW it’s wrong, and that’s what gets sex… assholes know nice guy code too.

That’s why, if you ever decide to look online for the “tricks to getting laid as a male”, every site you find, and there will be hundreds, all teach you to be a bigger asshole… there is NO SUCH THING FOR WOMEN ANYWHERE ON THE WEB. “How to seduce a man…” That’s a joke… just don’t be gruff or bullyish and the man is yours.

See… your argument about us being thinking beings who can say yes and no, completely sidesteps the di-morphism problem. Just like some potential rapist can read the statistics that anyone can read and say to themselves “wow, 30% of women want to be raped… I’m gonna go start raping women, because 30% of them will say no the whole time, but that’s what they want!” Or as they do in those Hollywood movies I described, where the man throws the woman on the wall and starts kissing her as she’s struggling, only to stop the struggle and start frisking and kissing him with complete sensual passion.

The issue here is that the nice guy is against the culture for the protection of the members of the culture in beneficial ways… once they figure out that their odds of having sex for doing this is 0%, they get out of here.

That’s not true about “irrational suicides”, I don’t think there is such a thing as an irrational suicide… a suicide is ALWAYS a vote out of the system, if it’s seen as irrational, then the system did something to help convince that person that it was rational, and that is a disease in the system that will make life harder for everyone who stays behind.

[Czarcasm]

@Ecmandu

You are deluding yourself again… you are trying to abstract ANOTHER layer of consent beyond the di-morphism problem. “It’s ok if I approach them as long as when they say no, I back off.” Usually, what happens in these “no” scenarios, and it’s part of the game, though not always, is that if you “respect” the “no” they will eventually turn that “no” into a “yes”. It’s the same shit man. Nice guys all know the game, they can see all the stages, they’re just not manipulative fucks like the assholes are. They know the consequences of approaching women… and actually besides nice guys, the people who will agree with me are the honest assholes… they’ll actually say the same things I’m saying… they approach women because they KNOW it’s wrong, and that’s what gets sex… assholes know nice guy code too.

That’s why, if you ever decide to look online for the “tricks to getting laid as a male”, every site you find, and there will be hundreds, all teach you to be a bigger asshole… there is NO SUCH THING FOR WOMEN ANYWHERE ON THE WEB. “How to seduce a man…” That’s a joke… just don’t be gruff or bullyish and the man is yours.

See… your argument about us being thinking beings who can say yes and no, completely sidesteps the di-morphism problem. Just like some potential rapist can read the statistics that anyone can read and say to themselves “wow, 30% of women want to be raped… I’m gonna go start raping women, because 30% of them will say no the whole time, but that’s what they want!” Or as they do in those Hollywood movies I described, where the man throws the woman on the wall and starts kissing her as she’s struggling, only to stop the struggle and start frisking and kissing him with complete sensual passion.

The issue here is that the nice guy is against the culture for the protection of the members of the culture in beneficial ways… once they figure out that their odds of having sex for doing this is 0%, they get out of here.

That’s not true about “irrational suicides”, I don’t think there is such a thing as an irrational suicide… a suicide is ALWAYS a vote out of the system, if it’s seen as irrational, then the system did something to help convince that person that it was rational, and that is a disease in the system that will make life harder for everyone who stays behind.

Where’s your cite listing your supposed “ethical laws”?

[Ecmandu]

Oh sorry, you asked about marriage…

Nice guys are “amory” not “gamy” they don’t believe in marriage, they certainly don’t believe in arranged marriages… “wow that’s great I married a gay or lesbian!”

Nice guys don’t believe in the institution of marriage at all, perhaps they’ll make accommodations for the tax code benefits, but in spirit they are not “gamists”.

Every nice guy I met who knows and abides by the code doesn’t understand marriage on a multitude of levels. It’s like trying to convice someone that their keyboard is made of cheese, they basically have the reaction of “huh?” are you insane?"

[Czarcasm]

@Ecmandu

Oh sorry, you asked about marriage…

Nice guys are “amory” not “gamy” they don’t believe in marriage, they certainly don’t believe in arranged marriages… “wow that’s great I married a gay or lesbian!”

Nice guys don’t believe in the institution of marriage at all, perhaps they’ll make accommodations for the tax code benefits, but in spirit they are not “gamists”.

Every nice guy I met who knows and abides by the code doesn’t understand marriage on a multitude of levels. It’s like trying to convice someone that their keyboard is made of cheese, they basically have the reaction of “huh?” are you insane?"

Where are any of your cites? This isn’t your blog, so where is your evidence for any of this? Where can I find a copy of these “ethical laws”?

[Ambivalid]

Why is anyone wasting their time with this crazy person? “You’ve clearly had sex with a bully, this court orders you to de-flower 50 Nice Guys as punishment for your crime.” That’s gold, jerry, pure gold."