This is the meta-solution to ethics

Great Debates
101

I realized that this might be confusing…

The point is that when you have a list like:

012345678910
123456789101
234567891011
345678910111
456789101112
567891011121
678910111213

Then you add another interval:

024681012141
246810121416
468101214161
681012141618
810121416182
101214161820

If you mix these two intervals together (weave them together every other), you’ll have:

1.) 012345678910
2.) 024681012141
1.) 123456789101
2.) 246810121416
1.) 234567891011
2.) 468101214161
The problem here is that when you converge this series at infinity, you have to get past an infinite amount of zero’s to even begin the 1’s:

1.) 012345678910
1.) 024681012141
1.) 036912151821
1.) 048121620242
1.) 051015202530
1.) 061218243036

etc…

So… it is impossible to count an infinity before you begin counting another infinity, and this makes it impossible to count all of the reals in one dimension with one list. No diagonal argument needed here!

BUT! for each of these sequences, you can still keep them countable by adding additional lists!

List 1.

1.) 012345678910…
2.) 123456789101…
3.) 234567891011…
4.) 345678910111…
5.) 456789101112…

etc…

List 2.

1.) 024681012141…
2.) 246810121416…
3.) 468101214161…
4.) 681012141618…
5.) 810121416182…

By using this technique, you can effectively square an order of infinity and still keep it countable. You can run the diagonals for these lists by adding another dimension to each list. List 1 list 1.1, list 1.2, list 1.3 etc… List 2, list 2.1, list 2.2, list 2.3 etc…

Or as was mentioned earlier, you could run the diagonals with a simple algorithm and still accommodate a counting sequence.

102

What the hell is this thread actually about?

103

The dangers of excessive mind altering substance abuse.

104

a) All ethical debates boil down to one central issue: Suicide.
Since girls won’t give sex to nice guys, the suicide rate is increasing at an astounding rate among men because withholding sex is the worst possible thing you can do to someone. The suicide rate is also increasing among women because this withholding of sex causes men to take out their frustration by abusing women thereby making them suicidal. I SHIT YOU NOT - this is actually his supposition.

b) Like our OP in the speed of light threads he thinks he has discovered some astounding truth in a topic that he has zero education in, and like our other poster he becomes dismissive when the errors are pointed out because the rest of the world is simply too dense to see his genius revelation which will overturn some fundamental understanding.

105

I don’t think anyone would disagree that a world in which fewer people felt the need to end their own lives would be a better world in at least some ways.

But that’s not a ‘solution’ to ethics - it’s a statement of the obvious.

And probably a vast oversimplification anyway. Why would it be unethical for a person with an incurable disease that has an unpleasant prognosis be acting unethically if they made a calm and reasoned decision to bring their life to an end at some point?

And all this ‘nice guy’ shit? If at any point you find yourself saying “See, this is the problem with all women…” - then the problem isn’t women.

106

Yep. He’s pegged suicide as the one and only measurement of the ethical nature of any argument, his meta-ethics. His answer to this meta-ethical conundrum is that girls should fuck nice guys.

107

I think we could condense that down to: “Sometimes I get so frustrated that girls won’t fuck me, I want to kill myself. How is this fair?”

108

I can totally believe this much.

109

The point is, I’m a pimp.

And pimps don’t commit suicide.

110

Can we see your evidence for this claim? Or are you blatantly begging the questions?

Absolute tripe. Almost no religions believe such a thing. I can only think of the Abrahamic faiths that this statment os true of.

Can you please provide evidence that, for example, a basic tenet of Buddhism is faith above all else in the word of what is assumed to be a creator that made us in its image?

That seems to be a non sequitur coupled with an undivided middle…

Even in Christianity, which you seem to think is all religion, the creator asks many thing from us, including sexual abstinence and love for our fellow man.

So why do you believe that the Christian creator values faith more than abstinence of love for our fellow man?

And even if a creator did only ask of us that we have faith, how is that evidence that this is all the creator values? The only thing i ask of my mechanic is that he repair my car. Can that be taken as evidence that I value a working car more than my own health?

This whole position is a confused jumble of non sequitur, undivided middle, begging the question and outright ignorance of theology.

How does that follow in any way at all? Even if we accept your confused and baseless argument to this point, why couldn’t an omnipotent and omniscient being value faith above all else?

This is yet another total non sequitur

Yet another non sequitur.

My boss is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Yet he still has the authority to give commands.

Can you explain the contradiction?

So you concede that people can not commit suicide despite suicide being the rational choice? That all by itself trashes your entire argument.

You’ve conceded that many people are committing suicide when it is irrational. And now you concede that many people refuse to commit suicide when *that *is irrational. You’ve conceded that a society can be hideously unhappy and unethical, and yet the suicide rate is nil because everybody is irrational.

As such, we can not use the rate of suicide as a measure of happiness or a metric for ethics.

QED.

You have refuted your own position with one sentence.

But such a system can not actually exist. So once again, you refute your own position.

It would be possible for a society to exist that has maximal happiness and is ethically optimal, where the population consists of 10% Heaven’s Gate members. This is society A.

And it would be possible for a society to exist that is identical the the present day USA, where the population consists of<0.001% eaven’s Gate members. This is society B.

The suicide rate in society A will be 10%, because no matter how good a human society, it will fall short of what the Heaven’s Gate ideal.

The suicide rate in society B will be just 0.001% because, well, it’s the same as the USA.

So suicide rate is not a reliable metric for happiness in some societies.

Once again, your position is readily disproven.

You really haven’t thought to long about this, have you?

111

Yep. It’s a classic Bat-deduction.

Batman: Pretty fishy what happened to me on that ladder.
Gordon: You mean, where there’s a fish, there could be a Penguin.
Robin: But wait! It happened at sea! See? “C” for Catwoman!
Batman: Yet — that exploding shark was pulling my leg!
Gordon: The Joker!
O’Hara: It all adds up to a sinister riddle… Riddle-er. Riddler?

112

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
We’ve spoken before MGO. Of course, I’m 13 years older and have processed an amazing amount of information since then… truly I am a completely different person. Cognitively, I have aged exponentially.
[/QUOTE]

I would still like to know what you’re referring to here, because:
My username isnt MGO (Man Get Out). Anyone who knows me ought to know this.

My join date here was about 13 years ago, so are you just bluffing based on that?

113

Actually in Buddhism the Buddha preaches faith to the monks, and he really doesn’t provide logical reasons why people should refuse to have sex and sit around while psychopaths are going around raping and torturing people. In fact, in Buddhism, the Buddha teaches that the BEST life you can take for the attainment of enlightenment is a human body, however, the one of the metrics of the most ethical human life is to never have sex… well… without sex, you can’t have humans! Some Buddhists believe in a creator, in fact when the Buddha tapped the earth as his witness when maras armies were descending upon him, I believe the story holds that it was Vishnu’s mother that sent the earth-quake that spread maras armies away, which technichally is the same concept as the mother of God to Hindu’s.

You obviously don’t understand the faith argument… an omniscient and omnipotent being doesn’t require faith - faith contradicts these properties. Faith is actually a pretty universal aspect of all religions, I’ve actually done a little research into this despite your claims that I haven’t.

They are contradicting themselves because an omnipotent, omniscient creator doesn’t use faith as an argument, they use reason, it’s a contradiction… doing ANYTHING out of faith when defining the person telling you as the omnipotent omniscient creator of the universe is a contradiction, faith is what people ask when no reason is supplied, in fact, most often, not only when no good reason is supplied, but specifically when the thing you’re being asked to do usually has horrific consequences.

I have no idea how you got all these “concessions”.

In order for the species as a whole to have the best chance of survival and to give everyone here the best possible lives, you need to have a rate of suicide that is zero with a system that makes suicide as easy as possible. That’s how sentient species work… because you then have a system where all of the variety of consciousness’s born here have nobody voting out of the system, and anytime someone does vote out of the system, something in the system on this side is by definition unethical, meaning “bad”. If there is no system, there is no good or bad… it’s the only possible solution to ethics.

You all laugh at me about human sexuality, but I can guarantee you that when you get the female suicide rates to zero, when you get the homicides, rapes etc down to zero… that the male suicide rates will stay stable… and you will start scratching your heads wondering “how can that be?” And, what’s more, these suicide rates make for a system that cannot be sustained long term, any system that even has one vote out when suicide is easy, still has some problems to address. And if people don’t address those problems, those problems are going to catch up with the entire population… and if you bury it by making suicide difficult, you can’t actually measure where these problems are, and again, the system crashes; besides being an absolutely horrific thing to do to a person, bringing them here but not giving them a way out if they don’t want to stay.

114

Oh! You can guarantee it!
See, I missed that first time around. That makes all the difference in the world.

115

Unless, that is, suicide is largely the product of mental illness and a genetic predisposition. In that event, suicide rates cannot be meaningfully used as an ethical measurement.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
You all laugh at me about human sexuality, but I can guarantee you that when you get the female suicide rates to zero, when you get the homicides, rapes etc down to zero… that the male suicide rates will stay stable… and you will start scratching your heads wondering “how can that be?”
[/quote]

This is the fallacy of “begging the question”. You are using your conclusion itself as evidence that your conclusion is true.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
And, what’s more, these suicide rates make for a system that cannot be sustained long term, any system that even has one vote out when suicide is easy, still has some problems to address.
[/quote]

Problems, perhaps, but not necessarily ethical ones. The current state of the art of treatment for mental illness is what it is, no improvement in ethical conduct is going to advance that state of the art. Clinical breakthroughs can’t be conjured through wishing for them to occur.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
And if people don’t address those problems, those problems are going to catch up with the entire population… and if you bury it by making suicide difficult, you can’t actually measure where these problems are, and again, the system crashes; besides being an absolutely horrific thing to do to a person, bringing them here but not giving them a way out if they don’t want to stay.
[/QUOTE]

Mental illness is being addressed, there’s just no magic-bullet cure.

116

Anyone else having flashbacks to Dr. Strangelove? I’m sure we’re only one syllogism away from talking about our precious bodily fluids.

117

Hmm… You have to understand that men commit suicide from primary causes more than secondary causes, women commit suicide usually from secondary causes, this is why the male suicide rate is so much higher than the female one.

Ask yourself something… WHY do women commit less suicide when they are being raped at a rate of 1:5, and sexually assaulted at a rate of 1:3, when the male instances of rape and sexual assault are MINISCULE compared to women.

Obviously, something is WORSE for men than rape and sexual assault is for women!!!

Actually, ask yourself why statistically, more men kill themselves outside of concentration camps than in concentration camps, ask yourself why the suicide rate of men in the military surpassed the suicide rate of the general population only after women were let into combat!!!

How can it be, that men are experiencing something WORSE than a concentration camp, and women aren’t? What causes male suicide to spike in the military beyond the general population ONLY when women are allowed into combat?!!!

All you have to do is look at sex!

Someone said that 90% of suicides are the mentally ill… actually they misrepresented the facts… because if you look up the most common reason that supplies for suicidal ideation… the top two are “lack of a sexual partner” and “loss of a job” Now… since males commit much more suicide than women… there must be something that causes “lack of partner” and “loss of a job” more male suicidal ideation than female suicidal ideation… there must be something about these two metrics in particular that apply much more to men than women.

BY FAR there are more men on earth who’ve NEVER had sex, who want sex, than there are women. When we’re talking sexual equilibriums, there are WAY more men who haven’t even come close to meeting their sexual equilibriums than there are women… and THIS is what’s causing the suicide.

I can tell you, if we had a polyamorous society, and in this polyamorous society (sex tends to bind communities) we had communities raising children instead of two parents, and the least sexually aggressive men got the most sexual choice, that the most aggressive men would start to become less aggressive and we’d be living in a better world. You cannot see the big picture, and you will laugh, and laugh, and laugh… that is the female denial system laughing for you, not what’s actually true, that’s what your cognition is sexually blackmailed to do from women’s sexual consent structure and denial system.

If you REALLY want to solve suicide, you need to look at why women have less suicide than men do… and the reason is, because 90% of women are getting enough sexual variety and getting their equilibriums met and the opposite is true of men, 90% of them are not getting their sexual equilibriums met, and the kicker that REALLY causes the suicides in men… is that the 90% of women who get the sexual choice are the LEAST aggressive members of their gender and the 90% of men who DON’T get sexual equilibriums men are the LEAST aggressive members of their gender.

Women don’t experience targeted sexual discrimination for preventing rape and war and suicide… men DO! This causes existential suicide (life has no meaning - it’s all shit- and there’s no reason to stay here if only the assholes get the most sexual choice - because that means that not only is this world shit, it will continue to stay shit)

118

Cite?

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
Ask yourself something… WHY do women commit less suicide when they are being raped at a rate of 1:5, and sexually assaulted at a rate of 1:3, when the male instances of rape and sexual assault are MINISCULE compared to women.
[/quote]

Because rape and sexual assault don’t cause suicide, mental illness and a genetic predisposition to impulsive behavior do.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
Obviously, something is WORSE for men than rape and sexual assault is for women!!!
[/quote]

Mental illness, and a genetic predisposition to impulsive behavior.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
Actually, ask yourself why statistically, more men kill themselves outside of concentration camps than in concentration camps, ask yourself why the suicide rate of men in the military surpassed the suicide rate of the general population only after women were let into combat!!!
[/quote]

Cite?

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
How can it be, that men are experiencing something WORSE than a concentration camp, and women aren’t? What causes male suicide to spike in the military beyond the general population ONLY when women are allowed into combat?!!!

All you have to do is look at sex!
[/quote]

Men are more prone to some forms of mental illness.

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
Someone said that 90% of suicides are the mentally ill… actually they misrepresented the facts… because if you look up the most common reason that supplies for suicidal ideation… the top two are “lack of a sexual partner” and “loss of a job” Now… since males commit much more suicide than women… there must be something that causes “lack of partner” and “loss of a job” more male suicidal ideation than female suicidal ideation… there must be something about these two metrics in particular that apply much more to men than women.
[/quote]

That was me, and I didn’t misrepresent anything. You’re making it abundantly clear that you’ve done little to no research on suicide, since you’re confusing a trigger event with the underlying cause of a suicide. People who aren’t mentally ill can endure the same trigger events that would drive a mentally ill person to suicide. I suggest you read the Neurobiology of Suicide article I linked to, you might learn something.

Oh, and cite?

[QUOTE=Ecmandu]
BY FAR there are more men on earth who’ve NEVER had sex, who want sex, than there are women.
[/quote]

Cite?

What’s a sexual equilibrium? Number of partners?

Oh, and cite?

I can tell you that we’re all just crystals dreaming of having bodies. Anyone can tell anyone anything. Without evidence, it’s meaningless.

I get that you believe all this, but without evidence, why should you expect anyone else to believe it?

No, they don’t.

There’s a reason suicide, or anything else, is studied in a controlled, scholarly fashion. It’s because learning what’s true requires shielding ourselves, as much as possible, from our own biases. You’re engaged in writing a narrative, not science, or scholarship. You believe these things because you want to believe them.

119

Youre not the member formerly known as Justhink, are you?

120

You are dead wrong about what causes suicide… you can make ANYONE commit suicide in the right conditions… if you place people in a room with a shotgun mounted to the wall that only activates when they are the only person in the room, and someone comes in and tortures that person day in and day out… that person, no matter who they are WILL commit suicide. Trust me, I know a hell of a lot more than you do about the causes of suicide.

It is torture and low suicidal tension that causes suicide, NOT “mental illness” and a “predisposition to impulsive behavior”. The situation is that men are exposed to more TORTURE than women are in the general population. The suicide rates of concentration camps were miniscule (they could always just make a run for the electric fences, which they hardly ever did) compared to the percentages of males in the GENERAL POPULATION, which means, that there is something about dynamics that occur in the general population that cause MORE suffering than the conditions found in concentration camps.

In order to begin to study what this is, you need to study why men do it much more than women do it, because if you can figure THAT out, then you can figure out what CAUSES suicide. The basic thing that causes suicide is torture and low suicidal tension… now low suicidal tension is ethical, torture however, is not ethical.

To be more specific, there is something about the conditions in the male population that cause more torture than the female population. I know there is great need to try to label suicide as an abboration rather than a sign of something to take seriously about what effects neuro-biological systems in a negative way, because if people begin to realize that sexual choice effects neuro-biology, they will have to confront the female denial system… and that’s 3.7 billion people!!! Not only do they have to confront the female denial system, they have to confront the males who are being sexually blackmailed by it, that’s another 3.3 BILLION people.

The truth, is that sexual neglect of sexual merit is the leading cause of suicide in the world - as a direct cause - not a secondary cause.

I have given you studies which can prove it - that haven’t been done - and I given you the sexual distribution ratios which HIGHLY suggest it.