# This is the shit that depresses me. (Hint: Gun dealers) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482 "2009-02-26T05:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/21 "2009-02-26T21:39:27Z")
My point, however, is that in the context of the linked story – which as far as I can tell, is critical of gun dealers selling to Mexican drug cartels – who gives a shit? It’s a big fucking gun that does a lot of damage. Do we really need an encyclopedic treatise on the history of the caliber measurement systems to be outraged? ---
**Author:** ![hellpaso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@hellpaso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellpaso)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/22 "2009-02-26T21:46:00Z")
I don’t think it’s necessarily the gun sellers fault. All a person needs is a valid ID and the ability to pass a quick background check to buy a gun. I live on the border where a huge amount of these guns are purchased and taken a couple of miles away to Mexico. It is not possible to look at someone and know they are buying for the cartels. As long as it’s lucrative to the smugglers, the guns will keep going over there. And all traffic into and out of Mexico does not pass through the bridges. And no–a wall won’t stop it either. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/23 "2009-02-26T21:49:07Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It’s a big fucking gun that does a lot of damage. Do we really need an encyclopedic treatise on the history of the caliber measurement systems to be outraged? No. Neither do you need to let your outrage result in a kneejerk reaction to try to ban something you don’t even know what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/24 "2009-02-26T21:50:24Z")
> [@hellpaso](#): > > I don’t think it’s necessarily the gun sellers fault. All a person needs is a valid ID and the ability to pass a quick background check to buy a gun. I live on the border where a huge amount of these guns are purchased and taken a couple of miles away to Mexico. It is not possible to look at someone and know they are buying for the cartels. As long as it’s lucrative to the smugglers, the guns will keep going over there. And all traffic into and out of Mexico does not pass through the bridges. And no–a wall won’t stop it either. Did you even read the article? If the articles description of the dealer is correct, it most definitely **is** this gun dealers fault. ---
**Author:** ![hellpaso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@hellpaso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hellpaso)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/25 "2009-02-26T21:57:44Z")
Yes–I read the article. I agree that the gun dealer was wrong. I was just enlightening those who don’t actually live on the border where this is occuring as to how easy it is to purchase a gun. If a seller here decides not to make a legal sale to a Hispanic person because they think they might take the gun to Mexico, they wouldn’t be in business very long. I doubt most of the guns going over there are bought in bulk anyway. That’s why that story was “news”. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/26 "2009-02-26T22:02:28Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > No. Neither do you need to let your outrage result in a kneejerk reaction to try to ban something you don’t even know what it is. Which has dick to do with anything I’ve said in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/27 "2009-02-26T22:21:46Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Which has dick to do with anything I’ve said in this thread. True. From the hysterical tone of your posts I thought you were in the “ban the big bad guns!” crowd. If I am mistaken, then I offer my apologies. However, if you are in the “ban the things that go bang and scare us!” crowd, then my comment was on target, and I do not offer apologies. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/28 "2009-02-26T22:36:50Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > True. From the hysterical tone of your posts I thought you were in the “ban the big bad guns!” crowd. If I am mistaken, then I offer my apologies. > > However, if you are in the “ban the things that go bang and scare us!” crowd, then my comment was on target, and I do not offer apologies. I’m close to being in the ban the big bad guns crowd, as you so irritatingly put it, but rest assured if I feel the need to put forth my opinions on gun control in general, I will welcome any education I can get. PS … > [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > Regards, > Shodan What the fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/29 "2009-02-26T22:45:28Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It’s a big fucking gun that does a lot of damage. I’d like to understand – even if I’m only getting your opinion on the matter – how big is “too big” and how much damage is “a lot” of damage. A .22 pistol, for example, can be lethal. But practically speaking it’s a very very small gun; surely it’s not an assault weapon? On the other hand, a .50 BMG, while much much more likely to be lethal, is also much much harder to employ in any sort of actual assault (your petty criminal usually finds himself without a fortification to mount it on). An AR-15, which falls somewhere in the middle, is a fairly lightweight infantry rifle that can be modified in any number of ways by a home hobbyist attaching mail-order parts… but while the cartridges are larger than a .22 pistol’s, the bullets are basically the same size! So do we want to go with barrel length? Diameter? Some mixture of the two? What about rate of fire? All guns are intended to kill people. If you’re going to go down a road that says “X is too much gun, but Y is okay,” then I think you (or an expert you trust) ought to be conversant in the details. Until that happens, any gun legislation will (a) _Probably_ fail to accomplish its primary goal, and (b) _certainly_ erode the rights of the people. That’s bad law in my book. ETA: Your openness to “any education {you} can get” is heartening and makes most of this post a big “nevermind.” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/30 "2009-02-26T22:56:31Z")
How big is too big to sell to Mexican drug cartels? Shit, I’d say slingshot on up. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/31 "2009-02-26T23:06:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](#): > > From the hysterical tone of your posts I thought you were in the “ban the big bad guns!” crowd. Like, say, [Nancy Pelosi](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/02/26/1812279.aspx)? > [@](#): > > Check out this exchange from Pelosi’s press briefing today. > > Q: “Madam Speaker, Attorney General Holder yesterday said that the Administration wants to reinstitute the assault weapons ban. Have you talked with Administration officials about that, and how quickly can you bring it to the floor?” > > Speaker Pelosi: No, but I think on that score, one good place to start would be to enforce the laws that are on the books right now. And I think the evidence points this out, that the Bush Administration was not enforcing law. So let’s start with enforcing the law that we have now." > > That’s right, Pelosi is using talking points which used to be standard NRA talking points regarding gun laws for years… “start with enforcing the law” on the books. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/32 "2009-02-27T00:37:35Z")
I didn’t start this thread to foment a debate on gun ownership, Constitutional law or all of the others stuff that surfaces when you use the word “gun” on a message board. I’m outraged, and find it depressing that there are people that are so morally and ethically bankrupt that they would knowingly supply arms to drug dealers who will use those arms to kill innocent people and law enforcement officers. **Read the article.** Apparently this dealer knew exactly what he was doing and where his guns were going. The NY Times was not necessarily incorrect in their description. > [@](#): > > When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns. Then the article it says: > [@](#): > > Now, the owner, George Iknadosian, will go on trial on charges he sold hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47 rifles, to smugglers, knowing they would send them to a drug cartel in the western state of Sinaloa. The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year. It doesn’t say that the assault rifle was an AK-47. It does not say AK-47 \*assault \*rifles. Maybe they did confiscate a true assault rifle that X-Caliber sold them. Also, can we be sure that some of the rifles weren’t modified to make them fully automatic? As for this particular dealer: > [@](#): > > “We had a direct pipeline from Iknadosian to the Sinaloa cartel,” said Thomas G. Mangan, a spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives in Phoenix. This paragraph also stuns me: > [@](#): > > What is more, the sheer volume of licensed dealers — more than 6,600 along the border alone, many of them operating out of their houses — makes policing them a tall order. Currently the A.T.F. has about 200 agents assigned to the task. IMHO it doesn’t matter what side of the gun control debate you are on. This situation is outrageous. My heart goes out to the enforcement agents and families of those agents who know what they are up against. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/33 "2009-02-27T01:00:44Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > I’m outraged, and find it depressing that there are people that are so morally and ethically bankrupt that they would knowingly supply arms to drug dealers who will use those arms to kill innocent people and law enforcement officers. I have very little confidence in the level of morality of many, although not all, people. > [@Spartydog](#): > > **Read the article.** Apparently this dealer knew exactly what he was doing and where his guns were going. Agreed. > [@Spartydog](#): > > The NY Times was not necessarily incorrect in their description. > When the shooting was over, eight agents were dead. Among the guns the police recovered was an assault rifle traced back across the border to a dingy gun store here called X-Caliber Guns. Yes, they were. If they actually discovered an Assault Rifle, then their inclusion of that with this article is intentionally misleading, as they could not have been purchased by a United States Citizen. > [@Spartydog](#): > > It doesn’t say that the assault rifle was an AK-47. It does not say AK-47 \*assault \*rifles. AK-47’s are, by definition, Assault Rifles, just as M-16’s are, by definition, Assault Rifles. > [@Spartydog](#): > > Maybe they did confiscate a true assault rifle that X-Caliber sold them. No, they didn’t, it wouldn’t be possible. > [@Spartydog](#): > > Also, can we be sure that some of the rifles weren’t modified to make them fully automatic? Since 1986, all Firearms sold in the United States have, by federal law, been required to have extra measures installed in them to prevent them from being modifible without extensive (very extensive) part replacements and/or modifications which cannot be done without gunsmith training, and would constitute a new firearm by extensive modification of the receiver. Can we just call a spade a spade, please? > [@Spartydog](#): > > This paragraph also stuns me: Why? Most of them are perfectly legal small business owners. There are tens of thousands of Federal Firearms License holders in the United States of America. > [@Spartydog](#): > > IMHO it doesn’t matter what side of the gun control debate you are on. This situation is outrageous. My heart goes out to the enforcement agents and families of those agents who know what they are up against. Of course it is; but not because there are so many FFL’s, because this could all be prevented. ---
**Author:** ![bannerrefugee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@bannerrefugee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bannerrefugee)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/34 "2009-02-27T01:30:10Z")
Most members of the NRA and other gun rights groups probably see this as a win win situation. Win 1 American gun dealers make lots of money Win 2 Plenty of mexicans get shot > [@](#): > > The guns helped fuel the gang warfare in which more than 6,000 Mexicans died last year. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/35 "2009-02-27T01:46:00Z")
> [@bannerrefugee](#): > > Most members of the NRA and other gun rights groups probably see this as a win win situation. This is a blatant stereotype, definite prejudice and I definitely take offense. It’s completely inaccurate, although I suspect you knew that before you posted it. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/36 "2009-02-27T02:14:15Z")
besides, all of the racist gun people I know have no problem with Mexicans that are still in Mexico. They’re probably afraid the violence will drive more people over the border. ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/37 "2009-02-27T02:15:16Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > I have very little confidence in the level of morality of many, although not all, people. > > Agreed. > > Yes, they were. If they actually discovered an Assault Rifle, then their inclusion of that with this article is intentionally misleading, as they could not have been purchased by a United States Citizen. > > AK-47’s are, by definition, Assault Rifles, just as M-16’s are, by definition, Assault Rifles. > > No, they didn’t, it wouldn’t be possible. > > Since 1986, all Firearms sold in the United States have, by federal law, been required to have extra measures installed in them to prevent them from being modifible without extensive (very extensive) part replacements and/or modifications which cannot be done without gunsmith training, and would constitute a new firearm by extensive modification of the receiver. > > Can we just call a spade a spade, please? > Why? Most of them are perfectly legal small business owners. There are tens of thousands of Federal Firearms License holders in the United States of America. > Of course it is; but not because there are so many FFL’s, because this could all be prevented. Let’s get realistic here. How is it “not possible” to have confiscated an assault rifle? Do “assault rifles” not exist? If they do, what makes it impossible for a drug cartel or a slimebag operation like X-Caliber to find a way to acquire them? Remember, we are talking about criminals here, not guys that are just exploiting loopholes in the law. As for modifying weapons, the one thing that drug cartels have is money. Their biggest problem is laundering it. What makes you think that these guys wouldn’t go to any expense to make their weapons fully automatic? As for 6,600 gun dealers along the border being just good hard-working citizens engaging in legal trade, give me a fucking break. That’s like say all those girls in fishnet stockings, miniskirts and high heels, hanging out on the street in the seedy part of town are just young ladies that like to dress up. ---
**Author:** ![5-HT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/f19dbf/32.png) [@5-HT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5-HT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/38 "2009-02-27T02:22:26Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > As for modifying weapons, the one thing that drug cartels have is money. Their biggest problem is laundering it. What makes you think that these guys wouldn’t go to any expense to make their weapons fully automatic? If they have that much money it would make more sense to just find a source for full auto guns rather than trying to modify civilian models. I suspect these guys weren’t real far up the food chain and didn’t have that kind of money, however. [;)]Maybe they were going for the old shoelace with a metal ring style of full auto action, it would explain why they had to replace their guns so often[/;)] ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/39 "2009-02-27T02:22:31Z")
> [@Spartydog](#): > > Let’s get realistic here. Okay, lets. > [@Spartydog](#): > > How is it “not possible” to have confiscated an assault rifle? Do “assault rifles” not exist? If they do, what makes it impossible for a drug cartel or a slimebag operation like X-Caliber to find a way to acquire them? Remember, we are talking about criminals here, not guys that are just exploiting loopholes in the law. Within the context of the article, they were describing Straw Purchases. If they meant that the gun shop obtained a Select-fire weapon (which are licensed for Military and police **only** ) and sold it to a civilian, that wouldn’t have been a straw purchase, that would’ve been an entirely different set of laws broken, and I suspect we would’ve read about that. > [@Spartydog](#): > > As for modifying weapons, the one thing that drug cartels have is money. Their biggest problem is laundering it. What makes you think that these guys wouldn’t go to any expense to make their weapons fully automatic? Then the article was intentionally misleading, like I said before. > [@Spartydog](#): > > As for 6,600 gun dealers along the border being just good hard-working citizens engaging in legal trade, give me a fucking break. That’s like say all those girls in fishnet stockings, miniskirts and high heels, hanging out on the street in the seedy part of town are just young ladies that like to dress up. They don’t specify ‘along the border,’ chances are they’re encompasing all of the bordering states, not just those that are actually near the border. My point is that the article is intentionally misleading, period. There is no question about that. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2009, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482/40 "2009-02-27T02:51:54Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What the fuck? Some jackass trying to get **Shodan** banned, perhaps? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-shit-that-depresses-me-hint-gun-dealers/487482.md?page=3)