# This is the straight truth on War and it's brutal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914 "2016-01-22T22:24:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tombennett91](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@tombennett91](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tombennett91)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/21 "2016-01-22T23:50:53Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Or made several and understands it’s not exactly rocket surgery. I doubt many professions are ‘rocket surgery’ once you understand it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/22 "2016-01-23T00:18:04Z")
War is not inevitable. Conflict is inevitable. Do all conflicts have to be resolved by war? No they don’t. Take my family for instance. Sometimes I have a conflict with my wife. Do I dress up in camouflage, grab a rifle, and shoot her in the head? Do I start punching her until she surrenders? Do I scream at her and belittle her? Do I calmly explain that the next time she disagrees with me she’ll be back in the gutter where I found her? Or do I discuss the problem with her and find some compromise acceptable to both of us? We haven’t had a war with Canada since 1812. Why is that, if war is inevitable? Because we’ve been able to resolve our disagreements with Canada without violence for 200 years. Right now we’re dropping bombs on some guys in Syria. That’s war. Is it inevitable that we’re doomed to always drop bombs on Syria? No, in fact, we used to not drop bombs on Syria. So there’s every reason to expect that in the future we’ll find some way to stop dropping bombs on Syria, and our participation in the war will end. Will we decide we wanna drop bombs on some other guys? Seems likely. But if we drop bombs on some other guys in the future, that wasn’t inevitable, it’s a choice we made. Maybe it was a good choice, maybe it was a bad choice, maybe if we’d started earlier and done something else we could avoid those future wars. For a while, France and Germany used to have a major war every generation or so. War seemed inevitable. Well, they haven’t had a war between them for 70 years. Only the oldest citizens of those countries remember the war. So if war is inevitable, how did this cycle of war end? It ended because people spent a lot of effort setting up institutions that offered alternative ways of resolving disputes short of violence. ---
**Author:** ![jerry\_smissingfinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e56c9b/32.png) [@jerry\_smissingfinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerry_smissingfinger)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/23 "2016-01-23T00:27:39Z")
War is big business, there will always be a reason to go piss on someone’s cereal ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/24 "2016-01-23T00:34:34Z")
All I want to know is: who _did_ start the fire? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/25 "2016-01-23T01:37:02Z")
The OP may appreciate [Let Us Become Cowards](http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/05/against-annihilation-of-spirit-let-us.html) by Arthur Silber. > [@Pantastic](#): > > I watched the video, you failed to show your premise that war is beyond human understanding - I find war understandable (though unpleasant) and have no real idea how you could make that claim. I think he’s cribbing a bit from the The Fog of War by Errol Morris. I noticed some clips from it, anyway. McNamara’s position is that war is so huge and chaotic that it’s beyond the understanding of any one person, which is how so many poor decisions are made. War in this sense is like a hurricane or the stock market. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/26 "2016-01-23T01:38:26Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > All I want to know is: who _did_ start the fire? > [@Billy](#): > > Not me! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tombennett91](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@tombennett91](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tombennett91)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/27 "2016-01-23T02:33:19Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > The OP may appreciate [Let Us Become Cowards](http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2007/05/against-annihilation-of-spirit-let-us.html) by Arthur Silber. > > I think he’s cribbing a bit from the The Fog of War by Errol Morris. I noticed some clips from it, anyway. McNamara’s position is that war is so huge and chaotic that it’s beyond the understanding of any one person, which is how so many poor decisions are made. War in this sense is like a hurricane or the stock market. This! But I understand if this was unclear, the beginning is brief. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/28 "2016-01-23T03:08:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What opinions are you fishing for? War is _obviously_ bad? Innocent people shouldn’t get shot? > What _contrary_ opinions did you think might come forth that you could start a debate about? War probably made humans the way we are. Without war we wouldn’t be human, love it or leave it. But lets find all the good things about war. Like: \* War drive innovation. - War makes for thrilling stories and movies. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/29 "2016-01-23T03:43:42Z")
As long as people find a peaceful solution to problems to be ineffective, impossible, or unsatisfying, they will resort to war and violence. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/30 "2016-01-23T04:30:29Z")
> [@tombennett91](#): > > If war is a part of human nature will peace ever be possible? Your thread reminds me of an article I read recently, [The Ongoing Tension Between Power and Morality](http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/12/30/ongoing-tension-between-power-and-morality): > [@](#): > > We can go back 2400 years to Plato’s dialogues to find the belief that it is better to act unjustly than to suffer unjustly. In the dialogue, Gorgias, Callicles challenges Socrates (Plato’s stalking-horse) by asserting that there is no good in being a victim, so it is morally better to be the victimizer. > [@](#): > > Even though Socrates appears to defeat Callicles’ argument, we find ourselves ensnared on Callicles’ belief today. American Exceptionalism is the legacy of Callicles, where the victimizer can create and maintain power, security, and riches (aided by lawyers, accountants, and publicists, who are conveniently for sale). > > Key to the success of the modern Callicles is the use of dishonesty to make the politics of ruthless power appear to be moral. One of the most crazy-making victimizations is the ability to lie with impunity. We were lied to about Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction, about the alleged Vietnamese attack on the USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin, about the RMS Lusitania off Britain, about the USS Maine in Cuba, and on and on, to make wars appear to be the moral mission of self-defense, when they have too often been instruments for the maintenance of world dominance, justified by American Exceptionalism. > > The dilemma created by Callicles is brought into bold relief when we think about Socrates counterargument, that people should work together, honestly, with justice and moderation: honesty, not lies, nor corruption; justice, not oppression; moderation, not inequality and exploitation. I guess the answer is that ethics are also a part of human nature, they demonstrably go wayyyy back, but it is something that has to be cultivated and nurtured in people, otherwise you only get their baser, raw instincts. So, maybe peace is possible if there comes to be widespread global education in the classic philosophical questions. But that is problematic. People will not be able to agree on the answers to those questions, to the point of polarization and conflict. The PTB won’t want this in their populations as it will give people tools to undermine oppressive power structures and tilt them more in their own favor. Religions won’t want it because it will tend to undermine _their_ power structures. And some people are simply deaf to ethics, or else toss them aside if it is advantageous- the highly educated and intelligent villains often cause the most damage. To me it looks like peace is theoretically possible, but highly unlikely. OTOH, the historical trend other posters point out is a decline in war, so it is hard to be entirely cynical. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/31 "2016-01-23T05:53:39Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > War probably made humans the way we are. Without war we wouldn’t be human, love it or leave it. You need civilization before you can have war, and humans evolved into their current form thousands of years before we started up civilization. We sure as fuck killed each other before that, of course, but ten guys braining eight guys with rocks isn’t exactly “war.” ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/32 "2016-01-23T16:14:19Z")
_It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it._ - Robert E. Lee ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/33 "2016-01-23T16:39:44Z")
I once was in a discussion here with someone who insisted that war only started once we had agriculture/settlements as that was when there was something to fight over. I was of the mind that since apes have been observed in clan conflicts that didnt seem a reasonable assumption. So this ought to shut up whoever the hell that guy was! [Remains of oldest scientifically dated human conflict found](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-35370374) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/34 "2016-01-23T16:49:32Z")
n/m ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/35 "2016-01-23T22:23:59Z")
Is this a recruiting video? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/36 "2016-01-24T00:30:12Z")
To the OP(and others throwing the word around): Define “War”, please. I mean, there is the basic definition of “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”…but that means that when you condemn “War”, you condemn those who fight on both sides of the conflict, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/37 "2016-01-24T00:46:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You need civilization before you can have war, and humans evolved into their current form thousands of years before we started up civilization. We sure as fuck killed each other before that, of course, but ten guys braining eight guys with rocks isn’t exactly “war.” Civilization, like war, is older than our species of humans. Neanderthals had civilization. Organised tribes, art, religion probably. [Chimpanzee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War) goes to war. The most striking thing when digging up stone age remains is how many of them were killed by other humans. I’m not one of those who says we can never become better, and eventually stop war altogether. But war did help shape us and made us what we are today. ---
**Author:** ![jerry\_smissingfinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e56c9b/32.png) [@jerry\_smissingfinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerry_smissingfinger)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/38 "2016-01-26T02:22:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To the OP(and others throwing the word around): Define “War”, please. I mean, there is the basic definition of “a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state”…but that means that when you condemn “War”, you condemn those who fight on both sides of the conflict, don’t you? Absolutely not ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/39 "2016-01-26T03:43:35Z")
“I just cleaned up this mess! Can we keep it clean for just ten minutes?” –Mr. Incredible ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2016, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914/40 "2016-01-26T05:00:20Z")
> [@jerry\_smissingfinger](#): > > Absolutely not Why on earth not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-the-straight-truth-on-war-and-its-brutal/743914.md?page=3)