# THIS is what the war stopped. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960 "2003-04-21T03:03:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![float\_flyer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c77e96/32.png) [@float\_flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/float_flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/21 "2003-04-21T06:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Removing Saddam was a good thing. But the war was not moral. A moral solution to Saddam would have been to remove him _without blowing up a bunch of buildings and people_. > \*\* How could that have happened? ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/22 "2003-04-21T07:36:12Z")
I’m not gonna rehash all the anti-war arguments, because it’s been done to death. But I will say that the pro-war people must be _really_ low on arguments if they are still dragging out the old “didn’t you know Saddam was evil?” strawman. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/23 "2003-04-21T07:40:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*Removing Saddam was a good thing. But the war was not moral. A moral solution to Saddam would have been to remove him _without blowing up a bunch of buildings and people_. > \*\* You act as if there were two options on the table and the US Govt chose the violent one over the non-violent one. Twelve years of sanctions didn’t get rid of the guy. Assuming for the moment that we had to get rid of him, there was no way to do that without a war. [quote] \*\* A moral solution would have been to remove Saddam from power and _put something other than anarchy and rule-by looter in it’s place_\*\* You now act as if the plan was to have looting and anarchy as the solution when you know very well that that is not the case. The stated plan, which may or may not happen - time will tell, is to put a democracy in place with a stable police force. You’re behaving like an ignorant embarrasment to your cause. Haj ---
**Author:** ![lonelocust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/73ab20/32.png) [@lonelocust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonelocust)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/24 "2003-04-21T11:43:53Z")
hajario, this line: “Assuming for the moment that we had to get rid of him” is very telling statement about the morality spin that’s been put on this issue. Assuming that S.H. had complied completely with the U.N. disarmament demands and the weapons inspectors, who do you think would be running Iraq today? It would be Hussein and there is no reason to think that he would be treating his people any different now or in the decades to come than he has in the past. We wouldn’t have invaded and would be only to happy to buy his oil without having to go around that pesky humanitarian-aid-for-oil-.thing. ---
**Author:** ![Fingolfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Fingolfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fingolfin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/25 "2003-04-21T11:57:25Z")
12 years of diplomacy failed. U.N. Resolution failed. Leaves (2) choices: 1. Do Nothing; Pretent the problem doesn’t exist. 2. Military Invasion w/ re-building support Clearly, #2 is the logical choice to make. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/26 "2003-04-21T12:07:40Z")
Similiar to the Underpant Gnomes, the anti-war crowd seems to have viewed the ‘Saddam Problem’ as: 1. Oppose war. 2. ??? 3. Peace and freedom in Iraq! I dunno. Maybe they wanted to hit Saddam with a scathing UN resolution, or enact another of those oh!-so-effective embargoes, but I have not heard the anti- crowd put forward a realistic plan for dealing with Saddam. And in the light of what we knew about Saddam, I have no idea how they can associate inaction against Saddam with ‘moral highground’. But opposing effective action against Saddam while providing no effective alternative is defacto support for the Moustached One. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/27 "2003-04-21T12:20:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Sam, are you that ignorant or just stupid? No one opposed to the war has been saying that Saddam Hussein is a good person. War opponent does not = Saddam supporter. You don;t have to think Saddam was a good person in order to be a Saddam supporter; you merely need to enable him to stay in power, which is what the “peace at any price” crowd wanted. It doesn’t matter that you say, “But we peaceniks hate Saddam, too!”–as long as your tactics served to prolong his reign, you must be counted as a supporter of Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/28 "2003-04-21T12:22:58Z")
One more time for the really dense peaceniks–if Bush had listened to you, Saddam would still be in power. It doesn’t matter that you may despise him, too if your proposals would have prevented the downfall of his regime. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/29 "2003-04-21T12:23:22Z")
That’s crap and you know it. If you truly think that the war was about ending a repressive regime then why not take a shot in Congo? or Zimbabwe? Or the PRC for God’s sake, or Pakistan, or Burma, or Libya, or… It’s not a matter of ‘could we invade’? We took a year plus to set up this particular war (and the administration took that time to try to find something that resonated with the electorate). We could do the same elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/30 "2003-04-21T12:26:06Z")
Similiar to the Underpant Gnomes, **Brutus** seems to have viewed the war as: 1. Support war. 2. ??? 3. Peace and freedom in Iraq! There are plenty of people who’ve had something substantial to say, but you’re never one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/31 "2003-04-21T12:33:14Z")
Well, there is already increased freedom in Iraq, and I bet the Baath party isn’t torturing and killing too many Iraqis these days. So… 1. Support War, and remove Saddam/Baath Party. 2. Rebuild Iraq along (more) democratic lines. 3. Peace and freedom in Iraq! Fucktards like you, **Beelzebubba** seem to be much more adept at pulling out the strawman arguments and attempting to redirect arguments, than actually supporting your own foolish positions. ---
**Author:** ![Fingolfin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eada6e/32.png) [@Fingolfin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fingolfin)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/32 "2003-04-21T12:33:18Z")
That’s right, if we liberate one country, we must liberate them all! If don’t liberate them all, we can’t justify liberating the country that we did!? WTF? Hello? Anybody home? Even if we wanted to liberate ALL oppressed countries, we simply don’t have the resources to do it alone. Liberating/Re-building Iraq is going to cost us an arm and a leg. We can’t afford to do that for every oppressed country on Earth! Especially when you consider most of our major allies don’t give us a damn bit support (exluding Great Britan, Austrailia, Poland, etc.). Besides, even if we did have the money/resources to do that, do you know how long that would take? We would have to go through years of diplomacy and U.N. banter, like we did with Iraq, before we could even think about liberating another oppressed country. Troop deployments would take time… O, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/33 "2003-04-21T12:37:22Z")
Sorry, didn’t get the memo. I thought the party line was we went to war in self-defense? When did it become a noble excercise in liberation? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/34 "2003-04-21T12:40:41Z")
When the whole ‘self-defense’ thing didn’t play in the heartland, **elucidator**. Call me a cynic. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/35 "2003-04-21T12:40:56Z")
So there can be only one reason to go to war? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/36 "2003-04-21T12:43:31Z")
No. Listen to me carefully. When you see an administration keep changing its stated reasons for an action (any action) we are safe in assuming that: 1. The administration has a policy goal to commit this action 2. The administration is floating trial balloons to see which one will get support from the electorate 3. They decided to do it for reasons other than stated I need some more cynical ex-white house press corps guys on this board. I feel lonely. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/37 "2003-04-21T12:44:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Sorry, didn’t get the memo. I thought the party line was we went to war in self-defense? When did it become a noble excercise in liberation? \*\* It was probably around the time it got named “Operation Iraqi Freedom”. Perhaps you missed that in one of your flights of fancy. Skepticism about the depth of this particular motivation is, of course, well-placed. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/38 "2003-04-21T12:48:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > \*\*When the whole ‘self-defense’ thing didn’t play in the heartland, **elucidator**. > > Call me a cynic. \*\* There’s little question that your cynicism is well-justified–I’m pissed that the WMDs have not materialized, which leaves me feeling very much conned. Stopping productions of WMDs was the rationale for the war. And yet. . . . . . I can’t regret seeing the end of Saddam and with probably wildly unjustified optimism, I hope to see a democratic government established in Iraq that can serve as a role model for democracy in other MENA nations. It does seem to me that the anti-war crowd minimized the monstrous dimesnsions of cruelty and barbarism of Saddam’s regime. Can you guys really say that the war was not justified if it ends in freedom for Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/39 "2003-04-21T12:54:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > When you see an administration keep changing its stated reasons for an action (any action) we are safe in assuming that: > > 1. The administration has a policy goal to commit this action > 2. The administration is floating trial balloons to see which one will get support from the electorate > 3. They decided to do it for reasons other than stated\*\* …or 4)There were many good reasons to effect regime change in Iraq. BTW, regarding the question of what it means to oppose the war, but also to oppose Saddam, there’s a parallel with the “States Rights” movement in the middle of the century. The States Rights folks had some Constitutional arguments. They claimed to be opposing improper federal activitiy, not opposing blacks. However, if they had prevailed, Jim Crow might not have ended. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/40 "2003-04-21T12:55:22Z")
Oh, I agree with you that seeing Saddam either A) blown to flinders or B) on the run is a good thing with a capital ‘G’. I’m with you on that. But it irritates me that the war was clearly brought to us under false pretenses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960.md?page=3)