# THIS is what the war stopped. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960 "2003-04-21T03:03:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/41 "2003-04-21T12:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*…or > 4)There were many good reasons to effect regime change in Iraq. > > BTW, regarding the question of what it means to oppose the war, but also to oppose Saddam, there’s a parallel with the “States Rights” movement in the middle of the century. The States Rights folks had some Constitutional arguments. They claimed to be opposing improper federal activitiy, not opposing blacks. However, if they had prevailed, Jim Crow might not have ended. \*\* Many good reasons, none of which they trotted out until the first one didn’t work. Were you born that naive? Or is trust in politicians something you worked at? And it’s nice to see our first real straw man. Using that line of reasoning I could say that the extermination of Native American’s was a good thing because it led to the establishment of the United States as a world power. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/42 "2003-04-21T13:01:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Can you guys really say that the war was not justified if it ends in freedom for Iraq? \*\* That’s still a pretty big if, in my mind. Also you’d have to weigh whether it’s worth the damage done to the UN, and to America’s relationships with the rest of the world, particularly other Middle Eastern nations. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/43 "2003-04-21T13:03:51Z")
since gobear mentioned WMD, the front page article in today’s [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/21/international/worldspecial/21CHEM.html) may be of interest. > [@](#): > > A scientist who claims to have worked in Iraq’s chemical weapons program for more than a decade has told an American military team that Iraq destroyed chemical weapons and biological warfare equipment only days before the war began, members of the team said. > > They said the scientist led Americans to a supply of material that proved to be the building blocks of illegal weapons, which he claimed to have buried as evidence of Iraq’s illicit weapons programs. > > …material unearthed over the last three days at sites to which he led them had proved to be precursors for a toxic agent that is banned by chemical weapons treaties. Responding to litost > [@](#): > > if this war was about oil, and the US installs a puppet regime or at least an US-friendly regime that five years down the line uses the same tactics as SH did to stay in power, would you still think this war was correct? In that case I would think that the war was correct but that the follow-through was not. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/44 "2003-04-21T13:10:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > **But it irritates me that the war was clearly brought to us under false pretenses… Many good reasons, none of which they trotted out until the first one didn’t work.** Its so clear, please provide cites. AFAIK Bush has been giving a list of reasons in his speeches for over a year. So have other Administration spokesmen. Plesae support your claim that they started with only one reason, and added others later. BTW, which of the justifications was the “first reason,” which you say didn’t work? ---
**Author:** ![Philster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/13edae/32.png) [@Philster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philster)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/45 "2003-04-21T13:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe Random \* > \*\*The big question now is, will the US actually help rebuild Iraq, or will things get even more fucked up? Remember, Saddam was actively _supported_ by the US when it suited their interest, \*\* I love this arguement. Next time, the U.S. should back people when it doesn’t suit their interest. Heck, we should pour money into Al Qaeda training programs and helping to get weapons grade plutonium into Norht Korea. Of course we back countries when it serves our interest. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/46 "2003-04-21T13:30:04Z")
To elaborate on my earlier post **gobear** , bad foreign policy decisions are going to be paid for in human lives one way or another (good decisions have to be paid this way as well, sometimes), whether in the form of wars, famine, terrorism, or just general chaos and anarchy. So no, I do not believe that hasty, ill-thought actions like the ones leading up to this war can be justified solely on the grounds that they savec X lives in location Y, as they may well end up costing 2X lives in location Z. The real test of justification is a long way down the road. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/47 "2003-04-21T13:33:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Can you guys really say that the war was not justified if it ends in freedom for Iraq? \*\* I’m going to wait and see if actually _ends_ with freedom for Iraq, rather than just a brief interlude of freedom while we’re there. Justified? I just don’t know. Maybe. Freedom for Iraq will be nice. But if things degenerate into another dictatorship after we leave, then it would be an interlude that cost us 100 billion dollars, some American lives, and a whole lotta face. So, I hope it goes well. I really do. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/48 "2003-04-21T14:40:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lonelocust \* > \*\*hajario, this line: > > “Assuming for the moment that we had to get rid of him” > > is very telling statement about the morality spin that’s been put on this issue. Assuming that S.H. had complied completely with the U.N. disarmament demands and the weapons inspectors, who do you think would be running Iraq today? It would be Hussein and there is no reason to think that he would be treating his people any different now or in the decades to come than he has in the past. We wouldn’t have invaded and would be only to happy to buy his oil without having to go around that pesky humanitarian-aid-for-oil-.thing. \*\* True enough but I used that line because of what **Tejota** said in the previous post. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/49 "2003-04-21T15:14:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*I’m not gonna rehash all the anti-war arguments, because it’s been done to death. But I will say that the pro-war people must be _really_ low on arguments if they are still dragging out the old “didn’t you know Saddam was evil?” strawman. \*\* But he _gassed his own people_! ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/50 "2003-04-21T15:33:11Z")
this has completely blown me away. [http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Stor)…,940250,00.html words fail me, is this true? - would 'audacious be appropriate? or simply totally manipulative. ie, annhialate the opposition by cruise missiles and invasion, then siphon off the spoils of war to Israel at bargin basement prices? is this plan by America borderline extreme antagonism of the Arab nations, or is the USA simply saying ’ they dont matter, only Israel does. quote. ‘bypass Syria’ - get the oil flowing back to how it was when the British Empire ( ‘thought’ ) they ruled the region. restore the pipeline from Irak to Israel? - just how much angst does the US want to create with its neighbors surrounding thier newly created Iraki war zone firebases?. Zanthor ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/51 "2003-04-21T15:35:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*You don;t have to think Saddam was a good person in order to be a Saddam supporter; you merely need to enable him to stay in power, which is what the “peace at any price” crowd wanted. It doesn’t matter that you say, “But we peaceniks hate Saddam, too!”–as long as your tactics served to prolong his reign, you must be counted as a supporter of Saddam. \*\* **Jonathan Chance** has already creditably answered this, but let me ratchet it up a bit, if I might: The direct implication of this line of logic is that the current Administration has to be counted as **supporters of** all the nasty regimes **JC** listed. Because not only are they not acting to remove them; they’re not even _shining a light_ on any of their misdeeds, let alone using actual diplomatic pressure. I realize we can’t _militarily remove_ all those regimes at once, so don’t bring up that straw man. But is the Pentagon drawing up contingency plans to do so? That we _can_ do, so that we can have Burma, Zimbabwe, the Congo, Pakistan, Afghanistan (currently warlord-run, excepting Kabul), Libya, etc. each take a number and deal with them in turn. Since none of this is being done, **gobear** ’s reasoning dictates that the Administration supports all of those regimes. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/52 "2003-04-21T15:36:59Z")
Zanthor, your link doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Zanthor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@Zanthor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zanthor)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/53 "2003-04-21T15:38:32Z")
yeah, just noticed, try this > **[Israel seeks pipeline for Iraqi oil](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/20/israelandthepalestinians.oil)** > > US discusses plan to pump fuel to its regional ally and solve energy headache at a stroke. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/54 "2003-04-21T15:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Since none of this is being done, gobear’s reasoning dictates that the Administration supports all of those regimes. Your analogy fails. If the Administration were actively hampering attempts to change or remove these regimes, then your analogy would make sense. As for me, I’m all for getting rid of the hideous regime in North Kore. I spent too much time in the South to feel neutral about that coterie of butchers in Pyongyang. I’d be all for the US exerting power to destroy the other regimes you mentioned as well. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/55 "2003-04-21T15:45:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philster \* > \*\*I love this arguement. > > Next time, the U.S. should back people when it doesn’t suit their interest. Heck, we should pour money into Al Qaeda training programs and helping to get weapons grade plutonium into Norht Korea. > > Of course we back countries when it serves our interest. \*\* Of course we back countries when it suits our interests. And our interests change over time. And if we presented our foreign policy as simply one of _realpolitik_, no one could say we were inconsistent. The problem is when we claim _moral justification_ for acting as we do - “Saddam’s evil and we need to depose him because he’s done X, Y, and Z” - and those were the very things _we condoned_ when we were buddy-buddy with him. That says good and evil are just silly notions we use to sell a war. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/56 "2003-04-21T15:55:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance \* > When you see an administration keep changing its stated reasons for an action (any action) we are safe in assuming that: > > 1. The administration has a policy goal to commit this action > 2. The administration is floating trial balloons to see which one will get support from the electorate > 3. They decided to do it for reasons other than stated > > I need some more cynical ex-white house press corps guys on this board. I feel lonely. I’ve never been part of the press corps, but will it make you feel less lonely if I tell you I’ve been raising those same points for months? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/57 "2003-04-21T16:06:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Your analogy fails. If the Administration were actively hampering attempts to change or remove these regimes, then your analogy would make sense. I don’t see how my analogy fails. as the old saying goes, all that’s necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. They’re doing nothing, and (without at all detracting from their other objectives) they could be doing plenty. > [@](#): > > As for me, I’m all for getting rid of the hideous regime in North Kore. I spent too much time in the South to feel neutral about that coterie of butchers in Pyongyang. I’d be all for the US exerting power to destroy the other regimes you mentioned as well. And I respect that. As you can see, my post was using your logic against the Administration, not you. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/58 "2003-04-21T16:22:36Z")
Quick question **Sam**. Wouldn’t it be better if the title was “THIS is why we went to war.”? Oh? You couldn’t use that title because that would be a lie? Well, yea, there’s that. Of course with all these after-the-fact justifications the “anti-war” crowd could post threads titled “THIS is what the war caused” and link to those extremely graphic photos of people in their cars who were partially incinerated when a bomb hit a bridge or highway crossing. Normal, everyday people, not troops in military vehicles. There isn’t really moral high ground to be had here. For every atrocity we “stopped” I have no doubt we committed acts every bit as bad. When you strip away the rhetoric and idealism of both camps all you get is Iraqi civilians who were dying before and are dying now. It is my hope that they will recover, but I’m not sure if what we did will help or hinder such a recovery. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/59 "2003-04-21T16:23:41Z")
From **Zanthor** ’s link: > [@](#): > > Plans to build a pipeline to siphon oil from newly conquered Iraq to Israel are being discussed between Washington, Tel Aviv and potential future government figures in Baghdad. > > The plan envisages the reconstruction of an old pipeline, inactive since the end of the British mandate in Palestine in 1948, when the flow from Iraq’s northern oilfields to Palestine was re-directed to Syria. > > Now, its resurrection would transform economic power in the region, bringing revenue to the new US-dominated Iraq, cutting out Syria and solving Israel’s energy crisis at a stroke. > > It would also create an end less and easily accessible source of cheap Iraqi oil for the US guaranteed by reliable allies other than Saudi Arabia - a keystone of US foreign policy for decades and especially since 11 September 2001. > > Until 1948, the pipeline ran from the Kurdish-controlled city of Mosul to the Israeli port of Haifa, on its northern Mediterranean coast. > > The revival of the pipeline was first discussed openly by the Israeli Minister for National Infrastructures, Joseph Paritzky, according to the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz . > > The paper quotes Paritzky as saying that the pipeline would cut Israel’s energy bill drastically - probably by more than 25 per cent - since the country is currently largely dependent on expensive imports from Russia. > > US intelligence sources confirmed to The Observer that the project has been discussed. One former senior CIA official said: 'It has long been a dream of a powerful section of the people now driving this administration [of President George W. Bush] and the war in Iraq to safeguard Israel’s energy supply as well as that of the United States. > > \ > > To resurrect the pipeline would need the backing of whatever government the US is to put in place in Iraq, and has been discussed - according to Western diplomatic sources - with the US-sponsored Iraqi National Congress and its leader Ahmed Chalabi, the former banker favoured by the Pentagon for a powerful role in the war’s aftermath. > > Sources at the State Department said that concluding a peace treaty with Israel is to be ‘top of the agenda’ for a new Iraqi government, and Chalabi is known to have discussed Iraq’s recognition of the state of Israel. Wow. Can you say “puppet regime”? No wonder the neocons love this guy. Mind you, I’m not saying that there would be anything wrong if the people of Iraq chose to recognize Israel, and ship their oil there. But the assumption has to be that no matter what their government, the Iraqi people don’t think well of Israel. And here’s our handpicked Next President of Iraq, proposing all sorts of things that would be sweet for the U.S., but that the people of ‘his’ nation are likely to be strongly opposed to, if anyone gets around to asking them. Yeah, that’ll be one hell of an advertisement for democracy in the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Toaster52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/50afbb/32.png) [@Toaster52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toaster52)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960/60 "2003-04-21T16:39:49Z")
**RTFirefly** _“The problem is when we claim moral justification for acting as we do - “Saddam’s evil and we need to depose him because he’s done X, Y, and Z” - and those were the very things we condoned when we were buddy-buddy with him.”_ The problem I have here is this: this doesn’t imply, it outright states that we supported Sadaam _because_ he was evil. I don’t know whether we knew he was evil and supported him because he was the lesser of two evils, or we didn’t know that he was evil, or that he hadn’t yet displayed his evil traits. It kind of reminds me of WWII again…we didn’t really like Russia (and later events justified our concerns), but as someone who was fighting a greater evil (Nazi Germany), it was worth it to support Russia. _ **AT THAT TIME!!** _ But it doesn’t then follow that we automatically supported, nay encouraged, the Berlin Wall, the outrages of the KGB, the taking over of entire nations (can you say Lithuania, Latvia, etc?). Situations change as the years go by, and our enemy yesterday (Japan, Germany) becomes our friend today, and vice-versa. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-what-the-war-stopped/169960.md?page=4)