# This is why I can't stomach the Catholic Church - still against condoms in Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774 "2009-03-17T17:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/61 "2009-03-17T22:13:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What the Church in AIDS-ridden areas is telling people right now is this: > > “Committing the sin of extramarital sex plus the sin of using a condom is **WORSE** than committing the sin of extramarital sex **plus the sin of putting yourself and/or others at high risk of a deadly disease**.” > > That’s sick. Actually, I can understand their viewpoint there, though oppose it. They view contraception as an “extra” sin on top of the extramarital sex. It could be argued that the use of contraception is a greater evil than the exposure to potentially deadly diseases. (I can’t fathom it as an argument, but it is possible). But that doesn’t work with gay sex. There is no “extra” sin with using a condom before anal that I can possibly imagine, where there is the mitigating circumstance of the whole “trying to save a life or two” thing. I could be totally wrong on RC theology (more than likely) and so I am wary to put words into people’s mouths. But don’t we have a religious duty to sin as little as possible, even if we aren’t going to be perfect and not sin at all? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/62 "2009-03-17T22:17:49Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Or where a woman might be engaging in marital sex with an infected husband. She’s not having sex out of wedlock but she’s still at risk. And the nice double-whammy for her is that if she converts to Catholicism, the way the RCC wants, she no longer has any options to protect herself. That goes for a man engaging in marital sex with an infected wife, of course, as well. Very humane. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/63 "2009-03-17T22:34:35Z")
> [@villa](#): > > They view contraception as an “extra” sin on top of the extramarital sex. Sure. But why shouldn’t spreading deadly disease **also** be viewed as an “extra” sin on top of the extramarital sex? Surely, even if extramarital sex is bad, it’s less destructive of life when it has a lower risk of transmitting fatal STDs. It’s the fact that the Church views the condom use as **worse** than running a high risk of spreading HIV that appalls me. And let’s face it, if you’re having sex in an AIDS-ridden region outside of a HIV-negative monogamous partnership, you’re pretty much bound to be doing one or the other. For the Church to decree that the former is worse than the latter strikes me as, to say the least, extremely irresponsible. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/64 "2009-03-17T22:39:16Z")
In the US, where more than half of us are Christian, and perhaps one-fifth of us are Catholic, it might seem nearly reasonable for the Pope to say that the answer to AIDS is to become a Catholic and, sexually, behave like a loyal Catholic. He says that here, despite the fact that more than half of US Catholics don’t follow his orders about sex. In most of Africa, where most people have no idea what good Catholic sexual behavior is, and most people don’t know what a Pope is, it makes no sense at all to jet in, wearing peculiar clothing and tell people that condom use is wrong, and isn’t the answer. The Western concepts of fidelity and no sex until marriage are strange to most Africans. This German holy man with the fishmouth hat says the answer to AIDS is to obey him. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/65 "2009-03-17T22:43:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure. But why shouldn’t spreading deadly disease **also** be viewed as an “extra” sin on top of the extramarital sex? > > Surely, even if extramarital sex is bad, it’s less destructive of life when it has a lower risk of transmitting fatal STDs. > > It’s the fact that the Church views the condom use as **worse** than running a high risk of spreading HIV that appalls me. > > And let’s face it, if you’re having sex in an AIDS-ridden region outside of a HIV-negative monogamous partnership, you’re pretty much bound to be doing one or the other. For the Church to decree that the former is worse than the latter strikes me as, to say the least, extremely irresponsible. I’m not disagreeing with you. I think it is a screwed up moral compass. But it is at least conceivable to think of the use of contraception as a sin greater than risking spreading a deadly disease. Fucked up, but conceivable in a logical sense. What isn’t even logically consistent, however, as far as I can see, is in suggesting that gay men should not use condoms for anal sex, when there is no contraception “sin” at stake. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/66 "2009-03-17T23:59:44Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > But arguing that condoms contribute to the spread of AIDS – with no data to back that up, indeed with reams of data the other way – is manifestly NOT hugely effective in the prevention of AIDS. > > If the Catholic Church cannot in good faith support an imperfect solution, fine; but IMO they have an obligation to not become part of the problem. Yes, I have acknowledged that that isn’t OK. Several times. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/67 "2009-03-18T00:07:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What the Church in AIDS-ridden areas is telling people right now is this: > > “Committing the sin of extramarital sex plus the sin of using a condom is **WORSE** than committing the sin of extramarital sex **plus the sin of putting yourself and/or others at high risk of a deadly disease**.” This sums up my objection very effectively and concisely, I think (granted, I just had a couple of St. Patrick’s Day specials, so I reserve the right to clarify later). **Bricker** , any response to this? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/68 "2009-03-18T02:05:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Actually, no, you don’t. > > But on this subject: here’s where you and the Church part ways, I suspect. The Church believes, and teaches, that it’s wrong to have sex outside of marriage, and that it’s wrong to impose an artificial barrier to the transmission of life during the sex act inside marriage. > > Now, your points seem to be: > > 1. The Church is wrong about one or both claims. > 2. People will more readily listen to the Church on one claim than the other. > 3. Therefore, the Church should change its teachings. > > Is that about right? > > But the Church takes the position that it _cannot_. Both the idea that sex should be confined to marriage, and the idea that artificial barriers to conception are wrong come, they feel, from God’s law. You contend that based on how poorly people follow their advice, they should change their advice. > > But that suggests that their advice is somehow based on what’s most popular as a teaching. I guarantee you that the Church could pick all sorts of changes to their doctrine if they were merely guided by how well people liked the teaching, or how readily they obeyed it. That’s not the touchstone for their lesson plan. The Pope is not obliged to talk about condoms. There are many other pressing topics he could talk about. Why choose condoms? Your OP said this: > [@](#): > > This has come up again and again. > > Those who vilify the Church for this cast her position as “Use condoms” vs. “Don’t use condoms.” They then shriek with indignation at the Church’s teaching people not to use condoms. > > But it’s not fair to evaluate that teaching on its own, apart from the rest of the message. “Fidelity in marriage and abstinence from premarital sex,” is the rest of the message, and it’s hard to argue that, if followed, this teaching would not be highly effective against the spread of AIDS. You claim there’s a contradiction in the POV of people who think that the Pope’s proclamations have power - but there isn’t. As others have said, this is because one person can follow both of those teachings with great diligence, and still suffer because their _partner_ didn’t follow the one about condoms, or ignored both teachings equally. That’s why people think the Pope shouldn’t make a big show of preaching about not using condoms, especially to the point of saying that they’re worse than not using them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/69 "2009-03-18T03:48:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would say that Catholic church has killed more people in Africa of AIDS than Al Quaeda has killed the world over. :mad: > > Not to mention that even if condoms were distributed freely today there would be bias against them for generations to come because of the lies of the RCC. I would say that you have an active imagination. As [I pointed out several months ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10647081#post10647081), it is highly unlikely that the church is responsible for many African deaths due to AIDS. The numbers are just not there. As to the “lies” of the RCC, the only people who appear to have actually heard or paid attention to Trujillo are the people predisposed to react to his message. I would guess that Deputy President (later President) Mbeki of South Africa making the same stupid comment, (before Trujillo ever made it into the media), had a lot more influence. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/70 "2009-03-18T04:22:09Z")
Screw the HIV/condom/ RCC thing… I’ve been royally pissed for decades now that they basically tell hundreds of millions of people who are living hand to mouth to avoid remotely effective birth control, least they burn in hell for all eternity (and when your day to day life sucks, the afterlife is the only hope you have left). Wonder how many starvation deaths and misery THAT has caused in the past 40 years or so… ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/71 "2009-03-18T05:33:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems to me that abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex is hugely effective in the prevention of AIDS. My little sister did this. She didn’t get HIV/AIDS, but she did get one of those nasty incurable diseases, which has quite adversely affected her health, because her husband couldn’t be bothered to put on a condom when he went partying with another woman. And that’s basically the problem. All it takes is ONE slip up from either partner, and both get infected. In Africa it’s worse, the women frequently have no ability or power to say “Not without a condom.” Or even “No.” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/72 "2009-03-18T06:49:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s opposition to condoms is tied inextricably to its opposition to premarital and extramarital sex. The two are part of the same package. Why? The church is opposed to sex outside of marriage, not sex inside of marriage. They are opposed to condoms in both cases. I don’t see how condom use is tied to extra- or pre- marital sex at all. But more seriously: if Jesus came back today, do you think he would be happy at the hundreds of thousands or millions (or even a dozen) people dying from this advice - many of them innocent, as the faithful wives of unfaithful husbands? Perhaps a woman who does not wear a condom when having sex with her diseased, or possibly diseased, husband is in a sense attempting suicide, also a sin? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/73 "2009-03-18T08:06:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s not fair to evaluate that teaching on its own, apart from the rest of the message. “Fidelity in marriage and abstinence from premarital sex,” is the rest of the message, and it’s hard to argue that, if followed, this teaching would not be highly effective against the spread of AIDS. And what, pray tell, are gay people supposed to do? Since we’re not allowed to marry, we are condemned to a life of neverending celibacy, right? I wonder how many millions of lives have been destroyed by this dogma . . . including “the rest of the message.” Now that bastard is on a holy death march through Africa. They should take turns fucking him . . . without a condom, as he prefers. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/74 "2009-03-18T09:06:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I would say that you have an active imagination. > As [I pointed out several months ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10647081#post10647081), it is highly unlikely that the church is responsible for many African deaths due to AIDS. The numbers are just not there. > > As to the “lies” of the RCC, the only people who appear to have actually heard or paid attention to Trujillo are the people predisposed to react to his message. I would guess that Deputy President (later President) Mbeki of South Africa making the same stupid comment, (before Trujillo ever made it into the media), had a lot more influence. 1. How many people have Al Quaeda killed? 20k? 50k? I honestly don’t know. 2. How many people have died of aids because of the RCC’s ignorant and outright evil policies? How many? Two million die a year of AIDS in Africa. Do you think that 50 thousand have died from AIDS over the last 25 years because some ignorant, blueballed, hateful fuck with a collar thought that his imaginary friend was more important than people’s lives? Is it possible that once percent of the AIDS deaths could have been prevented if the RCC didn’t fucking lie? A tenth of one percent? Unless you have some info about the actions of the priests, nuns and workers in the trenches I’d be prone to say that the smart assumption would be that the rank-and-file are actually following the lead of the guy with the golden miter. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/75 "2009-03-18T10:05:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It seems to me that abstaining from premarital and extramarital sex is hugely effective in the prevention of AIDS. I’m not sure why you posted this. Sex is hugely enjoyable. Abstaining from it is hugely unpopular. (Even Catholic priests who have vowed to devote themselves to God get into trouble over having sex.) You might as well say “Since diseases can be passed during sex, all conception will be done with artificial means.” \*\*Exclusive use of Test Tube babies will eliminate the spread of AIDS. \*\*But like abstinence, it simply doesn’t work. In addition, AIDS can be spread by marital relations. But the Catholic Church won’t permit condoms to be used, even within a marriage. Now I think we should educate people about the joys (and dangers) of sex. I think we should use condoms, pills and even abstinence (as a backup). The trouble is that the Catholic Church has nothing to refer to in the Bible about AIDS. It simply relies upon dogma (relating to a Jewish community living in the Middle East). ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/76 "2009-03-18T12:10:04Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > In most of Africa, where most people have no idea what good Catholic sexual behavior is, and most people don’t know what a Pope is, it makes no sense at all to jet in, wearing peculiar clothing and tell people that condom use is wrong, and isn’t the answer. The Western concepts of fidelity and no sex until marriage are strange to most Africans. This German holy man with the fishmouth hat says the answer to AIDS is to obey him. Africa isn’t Mars. Cameroon, where he was headed, is nearly half Catholic and has a Catholic population of 7 million. It’s as common to see the Pope’s face as the president’s. The country has a long history with the Catholic church and there is a full set of churches, missions, etc. throughout the country. Africa is one of the few places in the world where the Catholic Church is growing. This pronouncement is especially disturbing, because in many places the church actually does represent a progressive force. In my Cameroonian village, the church youth groups were some of the people who were most aggressively fighting AIDS in their community. And yeah, this did include condom demonstrations and distribution. Anyone seeing the way that AIDS can kill a community would do the same. But this kind of pronouncement could slow or stop that work. FWIW, most Cameroonians are shrugging off the advice, saying that public health is outside of his sphere and he should stick to his religious duties. ---
**Author:** ![Rayne\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/df705f/32.png) [@Rayne\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rayne_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/77 "2009-03-18T15:14:21Z")
The _Daily Mash_ has the perfect take on this story :- [http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/put-a-bible-over-your-penis%2c-says-pope-200903181648/](http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/put-a-bible-over-your-penis%2c-says-pope-200903181648/) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/78 "2009-03-18T15:27:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > And what, pray tell, are gay people supposed to do? Since we’re not allowed to marry, we are condemned to a life of neverending celibacy, right? I wonder how many millions of lives have been destroyed by this dogma . . . including “the rest of the message.” Now that bastard is on a holy death march through Africa. They should take turns fucking him . . . without a condom, as he prefers. Actually, this would seem to reinforce the point I’m making above. Are gay people seriously listening to the Pope on the issue of condoms and ignoring him on the issue of having gay sex? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/79 "2009-03-18T15:54:32Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Africa isn’t Mars. Cameroon, where he was headed, is nearly half Catholic and has a Catholic population of 7 million. It’s as common to see the Pope’s face as the president’s. The country has a long history with the Catholic church and there is a full set of churches, missions, etc. throughout the country. > > Africa is one of the few places in the world where the Catholic Church is growing. > > This pronouncement is especially disturbing, because in many places the church actually does represent a progressive force. In my Cameroonian village, the church youth groups were some of the people who were most aggressively fighting AIDS in their community. And yeah, this did include condom demonstrations and distribution. Anyone seeing the way that AIDS can kill a community would do the same. But this kind of pronouncement could slow or stop that work. > > FWIW, most Cameroonians are shrugging off the advice, saying that public health is outside of his sphere and he should stick to his religious duties. GOOD FOR THEM! I reeally mean that. Good for them. They should keep on doing what they are doing, as the see fit. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/80 "2009-03-18T16:23:47Z")
In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning. I don’t understand the outrage. The Catholic Church has been against birth control, premarital sex, and homosexuality for the last 2,000 years. So when they continue to do so today, it comes as a shock and worthy of a Pit thread? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=5)