# This is why I can't stomach the Catholic Church - still against condoms in Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774 "2009-03-17T17:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/121 "2009-03-19T15:01:01Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > You impose your morality where and when you decide or declare whether a moral belief is “wrong” or not. When you are (and others) declare that something is morally “wrong” in any universal sense, you are obviously trying to assert that your version of morality is the correct one – because the other one is “wrong.” Whether that constitutes “imposing your morality on anyone else” is a matter of opinion. … > > All of which is a long way of saying I don’t really think we disagree all that much. I just don’t jump up and down on people for what they believe, since I find it much more effective to attack what they do. _And_ I consider it manifestly unreasonable to expect people to teach or to do things they feel are immoral, or to declare them “wrong” for not doing so. I have to say something about that. We ALL have some sort of moral code. We have at times “declared” that someone else’s moral code is wrong. I’ve done it myself. There is no obligation to coddle someone if we think their “code” is wrong. Far fetched and ridiculous example: I could tell you that you are a horrible person for liking asparagus. You are evil for buying it, because that only encourages farmers to grow more of that vile stuff. I hate it. Obviously then, no decent person would eat it. You decide I’m an idiot, and go on happily eating asparagus. Where was the coercion? Where was my “code of honor” being forcibly imposed? I could start a media campaign about the Evils Of Asparagus. Do people have to pretend they respect me, do they have to take me seriously? No, the can say “that guy is an asshole”. We do not have to respect every opinion, every “code”, every “ethics”, every “morality” that comes along. Some are stupid and deserve no respect. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/122 "2009-03-19T15:51:17Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I have to say something about that. We ALL have some sort of moral code. We have at times “declared” that someone else’s moral code is wrong. We declare other people’s codes are wrong by not adopting them as our own codes. If we thought the other people had the right moral code, we’d adopt that code. I don’t see any difference between thinking “You’re wrong” and saying “You’re wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/123 "2009-03-19T16:08:24Z")
> [@It\_s\_Not\_Rocket\_Surgery](#): > > [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap\_on\_re\_af/af\_pope\_africa\_14](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090317/ap_on_re_af/af_pope_africa_14) > > They are complicit in the AIDS crisis in Africa with their anti-condom stance, and apparently this (utterly evil) policy will continue. > > Fuck 'em. Not with a condom, but with a chainsaw. It’s a two-sided issue. On one side, you got The Dude In The Funny Hat who says don’t use condoms because they help spread aids. On the other side, you have the fools who believe what he says because they won’t think for themselves. It’s a lose-lose situation all around. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/124 "2009-03-19T16:19:48Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > We declare other people’s codes are wrong by not adopting them as our own codes. If we thought the other people had the right moral code, we’d adopt that code. > > I don’t see any difference between thinking “You’re wrong” and saying “You’re wrong.” Which is the fulcrum upon which the argument against the RCC is based. Because their influence is so great, and finality of their “product” so compelling (eternal life in the kingdom of heaven or a lake of fire? hmm, lemme think) that the things they ordain as fact are taken by others as fact just because of their ordination, which is then to say that they are, even if indirectly, responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of people because of their stance on condom use. Let’s please not gloss over the fact that we’re talking about a simple people here as well. Africa has an education system that is poor at best. The RCC isn’t preaching their lunacy to a group of academics, they’re targeting the lowest social strata while ignoring the reality of their daily existance. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/125 "2009-03-19T16:28:46Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > But, people say, this POV is not realistic, because _of course_ unmarried people will have sex; they always have. . But also _of course_ people will have unprotected sex for various reasons. Why do we assume that preaching condoms works better than preaching only martital sex? I mean we are talking idiots who believe that having unprotected sex with 'virgins" (some are very young children) wikll cure AIDS. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/126 "2009-03-19T16:57:00Z")
> [@Rayne\_Man](#): > > That’s the problem with the Catholic Church. It doesn’t change with the times. That’s why it took it so long to recognise that the earth revolves round the moon, and why (for some strange reason) it doesn’t think that women can be priests. It’s living in the past. Well, I am not Catholic, and I don’t agree with most Catholic beliefs, but if you believe, as they do, that they are talking about eternal truths handed down from God himself, then you certainly wouldn’t change those beliefs like hairstyles would you? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/127 "2009-03-19T16:58:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Well, I am not Catholic, and I don’t agree with most Catholic beliefs, but if you believe, as they do, that they are talking about eternal truths handed down from God himself, then you certainly wouldn’t change those beliefs like hairstyles would you? Can’t they say something like, “Oh we misinterpreted what God really meant”? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/128 "2009-03-19T17:19:32Z")
There’s a CNN article on their site today that brings up a good point… [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/18/martin.condoms/index.html) [QUOTE=Roland Martin] Folks, there is nothing in the Bible about wearing a seat belt. But it would be foolish of any pastor not to tell his or her members to use the safety device when driving. Churches all across the country trust and love their fellow members, but you can bet that an accountant is employed by many churches to ensure that no one is stealing the tithes and offerings. Pope Benedict surely loves God and sees him as his protector and provider, but he goes nowhere without armed bodyguards. The pope has to know that murder is against God’s will. He has to believe that every person has the choice to be a moral and upstanding person. Yet not everyone abides by those religious views, and his security is there to prevent him from being harmed. [/QUOTE] Seems as compelling an argument as any other. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/129 "2009-03-19T17:32:27Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > There’s a CNN article on their site today that brings up a good point… > > [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/03/18/martin.condoms/index.html) > > Seems as compelling an argument as any other. It’s silly-assed. Let us say that cars were 100% safe when driven at the speed limt, that no crashs could occur. But that they did occur when speeding. Thus the analogy is “don’t speed and you won’t need a seat belt” vs “well dudes will speed anyhow, so we should encourage seat belt use”. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/130 "2009-03-19T17:48:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s silly-assed. Let us say that cars were 100% safe when driven at the speed limt, that no crashs could occur. But that they did occur when speeding. Thus the analogy is “don’t speed and you won’t need a seat belt” vs “well dudes will speed anyhow, so we should encourage seat belt use”. But you can’t say that. Your example, much like the stance of the RCC, does not deal with reality. Cars are not 100% safe, and just as my example of the transfusion laid out, you might not even GET HIV from sexual “misconduct” or sinning :rolleyes::rolleyes: You can deal with the fucking ‘what if’ scenarios until the sacred cow comes home, but the facts are that condoms prevent disease and the church has come out against them. That stance, no matter who it is taken by and for whatever reason is socially, morally and actually wrong. I don’t care WHY they think condoms are wrong, their stance kills people. Their words, their directions, their mandates, kill people in places where their words, directions and mandates are taken as absolute. Condoms are in wide use here, free to the general public in many places because we KNOW they work. Sure, abstinence works, sure you’re right, but if you do have sex anyhow and if you don’t glove up, then you could die and we all know it. THEY say don’t because THEY have their own twisted agenda based on teachings that couldn’t even have considered the existance of physical or medical contraception and choose wilfully to ignore the reality of the god damned situation. I mean it’s not like the RCC has been against all forms of birth control, they stood behind natural ‘family planning’ from the 1800’s on forward to some extent, despite that stance then, they’ve continued to go backward in thought and teaching. It’s a bad idea for a silly reason and they should be ashamed for failing to stand up and acknolwedge the truth instead, choosing to push this misguided utopian ideal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/131 "2009-03-19T18:00:25Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > But you can’t say that. Your example, much like the stance of the RCC, does not deal with reality. Cars are not 100% safe, and just as my example of the transfusion laid out, you might not even GET HIV from sexual “misconduct” or sinning :rolleyes::rolleyes: . Monogamy with an uninfected parter does prevent any sexually transmitted diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/132 "2009-03-19T18:12:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Monogamy with an uninfected parter does prevent any sexually transmitted diseases. So long as your partner is also monogamous, yeah. If they’re sleeping around on you, though, it’s a different story. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/133 "2009-03-19T19:07:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Monogamy with an uninfected parter does prevent any sexually transmitted diseases. While that is true and I’ve never argued it is not, HIV/AIDS can be acquired in ways OTHER than sex and the use of condoms prevent the SPREAD of the deadly disease. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/134 "2009-03-19T19:12:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So long as your partner is also monogamous, yeah. If they’re sleeping around on you, though, it’s a different story. Of course, and if all the world were priests and nuns until marriage and had sex only for procreation once or twice in life, STD’s would likely not exist, that idea being no more outlandish than the RCC’s or, it seems, that of the good Dr. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/135 "2009-03-19T19:14:39Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So long as your partner is also monogamous, yeah. If they’re sleeping around on you, though, it’s a different story. And if you don’t have the option of saying no to said partner. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/136 "2009-03-19T19:58:01Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > While that is true and I’ve never argued it is not, HIV/AIDS can be acquired in ways OTHER than sex and the use of condoms prevent the SPREAD of the deadly disease. Although it is true that HIV/AIDS can be acquired in ways OTHER than sex, none of those can be prevented by condoms. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/137 "2009-03-19T20:02:33Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Of course, and if all the world were priests and nuns until marriage and had sex only for procreation once or twice in life, STD’s would likely not exist, that idea being no more outlandish than the RCC’s or, it seems, that of the good Dr. Of course it’s silly to assume all people will be monogamous all their life (although I do practice “serial monogamy”), but it’s also silly to assume that foolish people who have casual sex will be wise enough to use condoms. Now, I think that the Pope is wrong here in not accepting condoms for those that aren’t being faithful. But faithfulness is a better preventor than condoms, and so he’s got a point. You shoudl not sleep around- but if you do, use condoms. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/138 "2009-03-19T21:00:03Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Of course, and if all the world were priests and nuns until marriage and had sex only for procreation once or twice in life, STD’s would likely not exist, that idea being no more outlandish than the RCC’s or, it seems, that of the good Dr. And the Easter Bunny really exists, there are pink unicorns, and etc etc etc. I just read an article (an editorial really) that says this pope has spent almost his entire career in “the magical kingdom” (the Vatican), and therefore has no idea whatsoever how things actually work in the real world. That could explain a few things. However, when someone (his popeness) says condoms do not protect against diease, supports an official policy to keep people from getting or using them, and chooses to ignore any evidence to the contrary, I am far less inclined to be as “forgiving” as that editorial was. If people follow what you told them, and they die, YOU become responsible. Does this guy even realize that? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/139 "2009-03-20T01:24:34Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Can’t they say something like, “Oh we misinterpreted what God really meant”? People who reinterpret their sacred texts or receive new revelations to match modern socials mores when politically expedient are more commonly referred to as “Mormons”. All snark aside, the Church is not in the business of saving lives. They’re in the business of saving souls, and they believe that the use of contraception is a grave threat to salvation. They’ve held this position for a very long time- why would we expect them to change now? ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/140 "2009-03-20T03:58:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Although it is true that HIV/AIDS can be acquired in ways OTHER than sex, none of those can be prevented by condoms. No, but the SPREAD of the disease can be reduced by the use of condoms. Good lord. Yes, monogamy is better than promiscuity at the prevention of disease and/or pregnancy, however that is not the real situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=8)