# This is why I can't stomach the Catholic Church - still against condoms in Africa **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 17, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774 "2009-03-17T17:57:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/141 "2009-03-20T04:01:59Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > People who reinterpret their sacred texts or receive new revelations to match modern socials mores when politically expedient are more commonly referred to as “Mormons”. > > All snark aside, the Church is not in the business of saving lives. They’re in the business of saving souls, and they believe that the use of contraception is a grave threat to salvation. They’ve held this position for a very long time- why would we expect them to change now? Except that they haven’t truly. The Holy See endorsed one method natural family planning or another since the 1800’s. Modern contraception is an extension of their own ideas regarding the management of the size of the families. More than that though, I don’t believe the piffle about being a threat to salvation (nor am I saying you do appleciders), I see it more as a threat to the coffers that they’re worried about. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/142 "2009-03-20T05:23:47Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > No, but the SPREAD of the disease can be reduced by the use of condoms. Good lord. > > Yes, monogamy is better than promiscuity at the prevention of disease and/or pregnancy, however that is not the real situation. Not compared to monagamy. Monogamous sex with a non-infected parter is safer than sex with multiple casual partners _with_ a condom. And although it is possible to get infected with HIV without sex, in none of those ways would a condom help. Now, I admit that _abstinence_ is a foolish solution that will not work in real life. But monogamy does work. It is a better solution than condoms. Now, monogamy with condoms just in case you really can’t keep it in your pants is even better. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/143 "2009-03-20T05:48:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s not fair to evaluate that teaching on its own, apart from the rest of the message. “Fidelity in marriage and abstinence from premarital sex,” is the rest of the message, and it’s hard to argue that, if followed, this teaching would not be highly effective against the spread of AIDS. I believe you may have a point. Sub Saharan Africa is about one third Muslim for starters. I’ve also read that many of their men’s refusal to wear condoms has nothing to do with church teaching anyway. So I thought that a comparison with a really Catholic region, say Latin America might show how really effective the Church may be on holding the line on HIV/AIDS through their teaching. I compared their stats as well to Western Europe’s, the least religious region of all. Sub Sahara - population 800 million -HIV/AIDS cases 24.5 million -Percentage affected 3.1% Latin America -population 577 million -HIV/AIDS cases 1.7 million -Percentage affected 0.3% Western Europe -population 732 million -HIV/AIDS cases 5.8 million -Percentage affected 0.8% It would seem to me the the Roman Catholic Church is doing far better in Latin America ,reducing by 63% the HIV incidence over baseline western Europe, the region least likely to allow religious teaching on condoms or non marital sexual behaviour to influence their personal life style. Now that is fucking impressive. > **[Sub-Saharan Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub-Saharan_Africa)** > > Sub-Saharan Africa\[a\] is the area and regions of the continent of Africa that lie south of the Sahara. These include Central Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa, and West Africa. Geopolitically, in addition to the African countries and territories that are situated fully in that specified region, the term may also include polities that only have part of their territory located in that region, per the definition of the United Nations (UN). This is considered a non-standardised geographical Th... > **[World population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population)** > > In world demographics, the world population is the total number of humans currently alive. It was estimated by the United Nations to have exceeded 8 billion (8,000,000,000) on November 15, 2022. It took around 300,000 years of human prehistory and history for the human population to reach a billion and only 218 more years from there to reach 8 billion. As of 2026, the world population is approximately 8.3 billion. > The human population experienced continuous growth following the Great Famine ... > **[HIV/AIDS in Africa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_in_Africa)** > > HIV/AIDS originated in the early 20th century and remains a significant public health challenge, particularly in Africa. Although Africa constitutes about 17% of the world's population, it bears a disproportionate burden of the epidemic. In 2023, around 25.6 million people in sub-Saharan Africa were living with HIV, accounting for over two-thirds of the global total. The majority of new infections and AIDS-related deaths occur in Eastern and Southern Africa, which house approximately 55% of > **[HIV Data | Global Statistics & Regional Impact | Be In The KNOW](https://www.beintheknow.org/understanding-hiv-epidemic/data)** > > HIV has reached every corner of the globe but some regions are more affected than others. Get an overview of the response in some of the most affected countries. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/144 "2009-03-20T14:30:34Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I believe you may have a point. Sub Saharan Africa is about one third Muslim for starters. I’ve also read that many of their men’s refusal to wear condoms has nothing to do with church teaching anyway. So I thought that a comparison with a really Catholic region, say Latin America might show how really effective the Church may be on holding the line on HIV/AIDS through their teaching. I compared their stats as well to Western Europe’s, the least religious region of all. > Sub Sahara > > - population 800 million > -HIV/AIDS cases 24.5 million > -Percentage affected 3.1% > > Latin America > -population 577 million > -HIV/AIDS cases 1.7 million > -Percentage affected 0.3% > > Western Europe > -population 732 million > -HIV/AIDS cases 5.8 million > -Percentage affected 0.8% > > It would seem to me the the Roman Catholic Church is doing far better in Latin America ,reducing by 63% the HIV incidence over baseline western Europe, the region least likely to allow religious teaching on condoms or non marital sexual behaviour to influence their personal life style. Now that is fucking impressive. Though the numbers are good, the comparisons aren’t apt when the variable of education is included. Overall, the education system in Latin America is leagues beyond that of Sub-Saharan Africa. Less education equals greater reliance on religion/religious leaders, who, in many cases are sent there by the Church. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/145 "2009-03-20T15:47:06Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Except that they haven’t truly. The Holy See endorsed one method natural family planning or another since the 1800’s. Modern contraception is an extension of their own ideas regarding the management of the size of the families. More than that though, I don’t believe the piffle about being a threat to salvation (nor am I saying you do appleciders), I see it more as a threat to the coffers that they’re worried about. You can’t save anyone who is already dead either. Can you? Hmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/146 "2009-03-20T15:55:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > You can’t save anyone who is already dead either. Can you? Hmmmm. Some people think you can. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/147 "2009-03-20T17:27:40Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Some people think you can. And some people think aliens travel zillions of lightyears across the universe to our little planet, just so they can shove things up our asses too. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/148 "2009-03-20T18:57:37Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Some people think you can. That’s true, there’s a church full of nutters around here who has actually claimed to raise a dead church-goer. People will get behind anything. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/149 "2009-03-21T00:29:07Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Though the numbers are good, the comparisons aren’t apt when the variable of education is included. Overall, the education system in Latin America is leagues beyond that of Sub-Saharan Africa. Less education equals greater reliance on religion/religious leaders, who, in many cases are sent there by the Church. You do have a point, given the fact that Western Europe’s education system is leagues beyond that of Latin America. less religious, yet has a much higher incidence of HIV/AIDS. Given the prevalence of commericial sex and sexual networking,against Church teaching, the acceptance of all male philandering ,against Church teaching, I’m hard pressed to believe the Church is all that influentual in Africa, and to blame the Church for failure in Africa is misguided. However where the Church is influential, they provide the best record in stemming HIV/AIDS anywhere except perhaps in some non African Muslim countries. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/150 "2009-03-21T00:40:05Z")
Why are you assuming that the prevalence of AIDS would be the same without religion? You aren’t controlling for lots of different things. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/151 "2009-03-21T00:46:38Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > It’s a two-sided issue. On one side, you got The Dude In The Funny Hat who says don’t use condoms because they help spread aids. On the other side, you have the fools who believe what he says because they won’t think for themselves. > > It’s a lose-lose situation all around. This. It serves no purpose, it does no good, it causes harm. One fool leading other fools to their graves. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/152 "2009-03-21T00:59:00Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Why are you assuming that the prevalence of AIDS would be the same without religion? You aren’t controlling for lots of different things. What am I not controlling for ? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/153 "2009-03-21T02:43:25Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You do have a point, given the fact that Western Europe’s education system is leagues beyond that of Latin America. less religious, yet has a much higher incidence of HIV/AIDS. Yeah- China too! Totally religious, and that’s why they have an extremely low rate of HIV/AIDS infection. Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/154 "2009-03-21T03:14:43Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What am I not controlling for ? Anything? Do you think diseases are always perfectly spread out across the globe? Can you show that South Americans follow the teachings of the RCC when it comes to sex and condom use? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/155 "2009-03-21T13:35:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yeah- China too! Totally religious, and that’s why they have an extremely low rate of HIV/AIDS infection. > > Oh, wait. Well, China in general has strong family based moral culture that values monagamy and eschews promiscuity. Its not so hard to imagine that people can be constrained from having indiscriminate sex whether by church teaching or cultural inertia. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/156 "2009-03-21T13:40:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Anything? Do you think diseases are always perfectly spread out across the globe? Didn’t I just point out the opposite ? > [@](#): > > Can you show that South Americans follow the teachings of the RCC when it comes to sex and condom use? No more than that Africans follow the teachings of the RCC, except for the fact that the RCC is way mor prominent in South America than Africa. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/157 "2009-03-21T13:50:17Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Didn’t I just point out the opposite ? If the RCC didn’t exist, is it your claim that South America would have exactly the same incidence of AIDS as Africa does? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/158 "2009-03-21T14:12:08Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > If the RCC didn’t exist, is it your claim that South America would have exactly the same incidence of AIDS as Africa does? No. Look at China. The whole point of my participation here is to dispute the responsibility of the RCC in Africa’s high HIV/AIDS incidence that assumes a man would prevent himself from using a condom because the Pope says so, yet merrily goes on fucking around indiscriminately outside of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/159 "2009-03-21T14:17:25Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > No. Look at China. Is there a banging-head-on-desk smilie? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774/160 "2009-03-21T14:45:15Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > No. Look at China. The whole point of my participation here is to dispute the responsibility of the RCC in Africa’s high HIV/AIDS incidence that assumes a man would prevent himself from using a condom because the Pope says so, yet merrily goes on fucking around indiscriminately outside of marriage. You obviously know fuck all about human nature, and the catholic church is like wise deluded, bloody minded, or just plain stupid. Sex is one of those things that sometimes just happens, one thing leads to another and each step doesn’t seem so far past the last, and well it just happens. People get aroused and resistance melts. People are gonna fuck. It’s what they do. Our closest relatives are Bonobos. It’s in our genes. Now the Church can either put it’s head in the sand, proving it’s god is either a cruel control freak deserving of a punch in the nut sack, or it can wise up and suggest Condom use “if one must fuck which they shouldn’t”. As it is now a follower is presented with either sinning once without a condom, or sinning twice with a condom. As long as they preach condom use is immoral, the blood of any of that die as result of foolishness is on the Pope’s hands, and the hands of all his followers that choose to support the monster. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-i-cant-stomach-the-catholic-church-still-against-condoms-in-africa/489774.md?page=9)