# This is why the American education system is dying **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521 "2005-02-05T14:17:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/1 "2005-02-05T14:17:25Z")
Grrrr … it’s tough to keep trying to fight ignornace when you can’t even get your kids’ teachers on the side of truth. Last year, my daughter came home and said that her social studies teacher had told the class in complete honesty that the word “shit” came from the acronym “Ship High in Transit.” No, wise guy, it doesn’t; We printed out the [Snopes article](http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/shit.asp) about it and gave it to him. Not a reply of apology or “whoops, I guess I was wrong.” But he did give us the jewel that since our rebuttal was found on the internet that it really couldn’t be trusted. This week my daughters “Microsoft Office” teacher (yes, they actually have a class on how to use Microsoft Office; this isn’t going to help when she finds out that I use Open Office at home) taught them that the QWERTY keyboard arrangement was set up that way because the last name of the inventor of the keyboard was, in fact, Qwerty. This time was came up with three or four papers including [this one](http://www.maxmon.com/1874ad.htm) which debunk this and stating the true historical fact that the keyboard was arranged this way by Christopher Latham Sholes. We’ve yet to hear any response from her yet. What pisses me off ([in neon](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=300799)) no less, is that my daughter is starting to get a little confused now and wondering if she can trust her teachers at all. And it pisses me off _more_ that her teachers don’t have the common sense to recognize when something sounds so silly that it might require further research before passing it onto their students as true. Well, my daughter is getting an education now at least. Just not from the people who I pay my tax dollars to provide it. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/2 "2005-02-05T14:28:24Z")
That sucks, but, it’s also a good lesson to her that she _can’t and shouldn’t_ completely trust the stuff that the teacher says. I can’t see any proof in your story, though, that things are getting worse. My high school teachers told me all kinds of crap that I can now recognise as complete bullshit. What’s changed is _your_ ability to verify/refute suspect factoids. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/3 "2005-02-05T14:30:27Z")
(When I said “What’s changed…”, I meant that things like Snopes didn’t exist back then.) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/4 "2005-02-05T14:33:27Z")
Some teachers are taught that you must above all always be RIGHT. To ever show a hint of being wrong means that the students won’t respect you, or will make fun of you, or even have the classroom erupt in anarchy. So they ignore, deny, engage in dishonest debating circle jerks intended to wear the students out, and circle the wagons. In fact, this happens a lot outside of teaching too in certain organizations, clubs, and companies. It’s the rhetoric of failure and weakness to not admit to your mistakes and try to search for the fact, then the truth. My first ever “punishment” from a teacher was for proving, by using the World Book encyclopedia, that the planet Pluto was smaller in diameter than the planet Mercury. In 2nd grade. For daring to tell and show the teacher (politely! I was terrified of teachers. It was only 2nd grade) that she was wrong in the previous day’s astronomy bit, I was ridiculed by her, and forced to sit in a desk in the corner by myself. The entire class was organized to make fun of me, and for the rest of that day she would do things like “2 times 6 is 12…unless UNA doesn’t think it is.” Until the next day my father came to school and did one of the few nice things he ever did and chewed out the teacher in front of her class for it. After that point she pretty much ignored me. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/5 "2005-02-05T15:18:32Z")
Teachers like this are awful. But, look on the bright side. Your child is learning a more important lesson - that just because someone is in authority or is an “expert” does not mean they are always right. It is a very valuable lesson. Many people never learn it. Independent thought with a healthy dose of skepticism can be very useful. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/6 "2005-02-05T15:22:00Z")
I think a teacher get more respect from having the guts and saying they don’t know. Even Cecil has been known to be off the mark at times, or unable to come up with an answer (pigeions and bobbing heads, for one). No one is born omniscient, no one is able to suck up knowledge from the ether. Unfortunately, a lot of teacher have also got degrees from the University of “My dad told me this when I was a kid”, with a minor in “I got this in an email from a friend”. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/7 "2005-02-05T15:24:16Z")
I agree with Gaspode. Part of a good lesson learned is that no one knows everything. My very best teachers told me “I don’t know” and then told me “See if you can find out”. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/8 "2005-02-05T15:42:30Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Some teachers are taught that you must above all always be RIGHT. Cite that this is part of any undgergrad or graduate courses in the nation? I think you hit it with the sentences that follow, it’s a human thing to not want to appear ‘weak’, it’s certainly not something that we learn in masters courses. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/9 "2005-02-05T16:23:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Cite that this is part of any undgergrad or graduate courses in the nation? If you think I was asserting that it was a formalized University instruction, rather than a learning by personal experience and learning by following the examples of other, poorer teachers (that is, being taught by life experience and the teacher training process); then with respect I ask you to consider re-reading the post with a more open mind. And if you come to the same conclusion after re-reading, then you and your “cite” demand are just not something I can really respond to. When I was first instructed as to the ground rules of the courses I was to teach, my advisor recommened that if students challenged me to stick to the book and not admit the book was wrong, because it would disrupt the class. When I was first taught to do technical training, I was told to cover up mistakes and to try to mention certain inaccuracies because we didn’t want to let people know there were holes in the course. Thankfully I did none of the above, and when it came time to train others below me, I did not pass on the bad advice. I told them “ALWAYS admit you were wrong, freely and openly, if you are in fact wrong. They may think they scored a point on you in the short term, but in the long term they’ll give you their respect so long as you still know more than them and can show it and teach it.” ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/10 "2005-02-05T16:29:42Z")
Why education is really dying… > [@](#): > > Last week I purchased a burger at Burger King for $1.58. The counter > girl took my $2 and I was digging for my change when I pulled 8 cents > from my pocket and gave it to her. She stood there, holding the nickel > and 3 pennies, while looking at the screen on her register. > > I sensed her discomfort and tried to tell her to just give me two > quarters, but she hailed the manager for help. > > While he tried to explain the transaction to her, she stood there > and cried. > > Why do I tell you this? > > Please read more about the “history of teaching math”: > Teaching Math In 1950 > > A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. > His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. > What is his profit? > Teaching Math In 1960 > > A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100… His cost of > production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit? > Teaching Math In 1980 > > A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of > production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your > assignment: Underline the number 20. > Teaching Math In 1990 > > By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger makes $20. > What do you think of this way of making a living? > Topic for class participation after answering the question: > How did the forest birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut > down the trees? > (There are no wrong answers) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/11 "2005-02-05T16:31:15Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > If you think I was asserting that it was a formalized University instruction, rather than a learning by personal experience and learning by following the examples of other, poorer teachers (that is, being taught by life experience and the teacher training process); then with respect I ask you to consider re-reading the post with a more open mind. And if you come to the same conclusion after re-reading, then you and your “cite” demand are just not something I can really respond to. Well, even after reading it over it seems as if you’re talking about what teachers are taught to do, rather than how society molds concepts of weakness and strength. I humbly submit that if you don’t mean to imply an organized course of instruction, than maybe saying ‘socialized’ instead of ‘taught’ would be better? To be frank, of course, I have a hamster in the race as I’m an educator currently enrolled in a MEd program. What we are specifically taught is that we must be continually reflective and self-evaluative, constantly trying to learn and get past our limits. > [@Una Persson](#): > > When I was first instructed as to the ground rules of the courses I was to teach, my advisor recommened that if students challenged me to stick to the book and not admit the book was wrong, because it would disrupt the class. When I was first taught to do technical training, I was told to cover up mistakes and to try to mention certain inaccuracies because we didn’t want to let people know there were holes in the course. Very strange… if you don’t mind me asking, could you elaborate on those situations? Was the first in a university setting? > [@Una Persson](#): > > Thankfully I did none of the above, and when it came time to train others below me, I did not pass on the bad advice. I told them “ALWAYS admit you were wrong, freely and openly, if you are in fact wrong. They may think they scored a point on you in the short term, but in the long term they’ll give you their respect so long as you still know more than them and can show it and teach it.” What do you teach/train now? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/12 "2005-02-05T16:32:53Z")
**ParentalAdvisory** is that a woosh or are you trying to get at a point? ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/13 "2005-02-05T16:36:03Z")
God, I usually don’t post in Pit threads, but Parental Advisory, POSH! What was THAT?! I was taking math classes in some of those latter decades. What piece of crap e-mail glurge. . . ugh. Did you also have to walk 12 miles in the snow to do your math homework? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/14 "2005-02-05T16:54:59Z")
Hell, I love it when one of my students proves me wrong in a lesson. That means they are paying attention and **thinking**! ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/15 "2005-02-05T17:21:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Very strange… if you don’t mind me asking, could you elaborate on those situations? Was the first in a university setting? The first was in a University setting, the second in professional management consulting training classes. > [@](#): > > What do you teach/train now? Until recently I taught a University course in my spare time. For work, for some time I’ve been hired as a trainer and instructor for various engineering courses, ranging from 1 hour, to 5 continuous 12-hour days (in France of all places…no 32-hour work day for them!). These topics range from advanced thermodynaics and combustion chemistry to power plant operation and maintenance to environmental engineering to computer security. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/16 "2005-02-05T17:25:22Z")
One of my high school math teachers gave extra credit for catching him in a mistake. We were on the edges of our seats! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/17 "2005-02-05T17:40:39Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > When I was first instructed as to the ground rules of the courses I was to teach, my advisor recommened that if students challenged me to stick to the book and not admit the book was wrong, because it would disrupt the class. When I was first taught to do technical training, I was told to cover up mistakes and to try to mention certain inaccuracies because we didn’t want to let people know there were holes in the course. Excuse my naive :dubious: but I thought the idea was to teach something that is accurate and correct. I applaud youre decision to do that, instead of merely passing on misinformation. If a text book is wrong, it is wrong. End of discussion. To deliberately push something as fact if you know it isn’t is lying. It will alienate students who are clever enough to catch it, and will completely confuse students who are struggling (“I did everything like teacher said but my answer is always wrong, I give up”). Any administrator or teacher who is more interested in “maintaining power” than in actually teaching should not be in that profession. “I don’t know” is far better than dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![LilyoftheValley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/54ee81/32.png) [@LilyoftheValley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheValley)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/18 "2005-02-05T17:42:46Z")
**Eutychus** , I understand your irritation, but I must with all due respect disagree that this is a new thing. I can still recall the lame urban legends passed out every year back in my school days on ancient purple mimeograph. They were generally considered fun add-ons to explain the “history” of holidays or somesuch. If you dared to question them, you were called a spoilsport, because they’re fun to believe anyway. (Sound familiar? These have to be the same people forwarding glurge today.) Not to mention the spoken ones as you discuss in your post. Questioning what a teacher _said_ was out of the question. I took some courses in science education at one of those modern, crunchy-granola ed schools supposedly excoriated in **Parental Advisory** ’s glurge. The big emphasis was always on encouraging students to think for themselves. A student correcting a teacher would have been a matter for celebration. It was the older teachers (generalization, anecdote!) who would tell me that letting a student correct a teacher would undermine the discipline in the classroom. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/19 "2005-02-05T21:49:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **ParentalAdvisory** is that a woosh or are you trying to get at a point? Mayhap **PA** was just trying to tell us that his/her email box is getting flooded with right-wing spam… ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521/20 "2005-02-05T22:23:49Z")
**Euty** , the best thing you can do is stand up for your daughter. In 6th grade I did a color picture of the [English flag](http://atlasgeo.span.ch/fotw/flags/gb-eng.html). My teacher marked me wrong because she said [this](http://www.jdawiseman.com/papers/union-jack/union-jack.html) was the English flag. My mother marched in (she was English) and showed her how she was wrong. The teacher apologized and gave me credit. I learned that teachers can be wrong, and as long as you show your daughter how she can verify the information, she’ll get through school just fine. I would continue to disprove the teacher’s wrong statements. If she continues to spread the misinformation, take it up with the principal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-is-why-the-american-education-system-is-dying/288521.md?page=2)