# This local criminal case really irritates me **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 1, 2024, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110 "2024-08-01T14:03:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/1 "2024-08-01T14:03:16Z")
Note: this story does talk about suicide. So this woman was found with 20 stab wounds in a locked room, and yet it was ruled a suicide. And then it was ruled that the medical examiner’s determination couldn’t be overruled and her parents didn’t have ruling to appeal. It all feels like someone made a mistake and there’s a lot of CYA (cover your ass) going on. > **[Pa. Supreme Court takes case of Ellen Greenberg, whose death by 20 stab...](https://www.pennlive.com/news/2024/07/pa-supreme-court-takes-case-of-ellen-greenberg-whose-death-by-20-stab-wounds-was-ruled-suicide.html)** > > The Greenberg’s Center City attorney, Joseph Podraza, said his clients were “elated” and moved to tears when they learned their petition to appeal was granted. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/2 "2024-08-01T14:14:46Z")
That’s messed up. I do wonder the motivation of the cops for fighting it so hard, when it was so obviously not a suicide. Other than ruling it a suicide because (according to the boyfriend 😐 ) the door was locked, but that doesn’t sound to me like a reason to go against the obvious conclusions of the ME. I wonder if it’s going to come out the boyfriend was a friend or relative of the cops. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/3 "2024-08-01T14:19:35Z")
This is an interesting tidbit. And terrifying. WTF?! > …giving a coroner or medical examiner “absolute discretion that can’t be challenged” is “a very foreign concept.” > > This is especially true in Pennsylvania, he said, where a coroner is typically an elected position, one that does not require a medical degree or medical training. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/4 "2024-08-01T15:49:31Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > This is an interesting tidbit. And terrifying. WTF?! “Coroner” as an office has nothing to do with this case. The “ruling” that can’t be challenged was by an assistant Medical Examiner, who performed the autopsy. This person presumably has a medical degree. The family’s lawyer who said the stuff in your quote seems to be unaware of this difference. The article states that there are many counties in Pennsylvania that don’t have medically qualified coroners OR medical examiners. I find this hard to believe, but I have no actual evidence to contradict it. The law seems to be clear that the ME’s judgment rules, and that’s what the family is challenging. The appeals court thought they had no choice but to follow the law, but I presume the state supreme court can overturn it. They took the case because the issue can affect anyone who has a close relative die in conditions that require a ME-determined cause of death. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/5 "2024-08-01T15:59:44Z")
Its seems from the article that the ME was being pressured by the police to conclude it was suicide, despite the evidence: > Police publicly disputed the findings and Osbourne later changed his ruling to suicide, with no explanation to Greenberg’s parents. I really wonder why they did this. I mean it could just be ego: “we are the infallible guardians of justice and public safety and our judgement cannot be questioned!” But I do wonder if something else is going on. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/6 "2024-08-01T16:14:49Z")
Pennsylvania will soon become like one of those foreign regimes where the homicide rate is zero and the suicide rate is triple. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/7 "2024-08-01T17:11:37Z")
It’s reminiscent of [this case](https://www.loweringthebar.net/2019/07/natural-causes-determination-called-into-question.html) in Georgia, where a death was ruled as being from “natural causes”, despite the body having multiple stab wounds and there being “a large amount of blood” on the bed beneath the body, on the walls, and on the shower curtain in the bathroom. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/8 "2024-08-01T17:21:48Z")
Sounds like [Sandford](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Fuzz). Someone get Simon Pegg on the phone. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/9 "2024-08-01T17:25:21Z")
“The victim was found bound, gagged, shot three times, stabbed 12 times, hanged and dismembered. Police are ruling it a suicide.” This case really shows the truth of the “CSI Effect”. Actual criminologists are either corrupt or incompetent. Were I examining the body, even I could tell if the stab wounds in the back of her neck were self-inflicted, and I am not a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/10 "2024-08-01T17:34:14Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > “Coroner” as an office has nothing to do with this case. The “ruling” that can’t be challenged was by an assistant Medical Examiner, who performed the autopsy. This person presumably has a medical degree. The family’s lawyer who said the stuff in your quote seems to be unaware of this difference. I don’t think that’s the issue in this appeal. The issue, as defined in the Supreme Court order granting leave to appeal, is: > According to [the order](https://www.pacourts.us/assets/opinions/Supreme/out/332EAL2023%20-%20106019541275680784.pdf?cb=1) granting the appeal, the Supreme Court will consider the issue of whether “executors and administrators of an estate have standing to challenge an erroneous finding recorded on the decedent’s death certificate where that finding constitutes a bar or material impediment to recovery of victim’s compensation, restitution or for wrongful death, as well as private criminal complaints.” It’s the question of the validity of the death certificate that the Court will examine; doesn’t appear to be tied to whether the certificate was issued by a medical examiner or by a coronoer. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/11 "2024-08-01T20:23:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s the question of the validity of the death certificate that the Court will examine; doesn’t appear to be tied to whether the certificate was issued by a medical examiner or by a coronoer. Yes, but it was, in fact, by a (probably) medically qualified medical examiner. This observation was only in response to the quote from the article highlighted by @DCnDC, and quoted in my post. That coroners are elected and may not be medically qualified is not relevant to the original stabbing case nor to the appeal of the ME’s ruling. And I believe I mostly covered your point in the third paragraph of my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/12 "2024-08-01T20:31:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I do wonder the motivation of the cops for fighting it so hard, when it was so obviously not a suicide. Police Departments _hate_ unresolved homicides. It’s a key metric by which they’re judged. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/13 "2024-08-01T20:32:06Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > The article states that there are many counties in Pennsylvania that don’t have medically qualified coroners OR medical examiners. Many locales in Pennsylvania don’t have any local law enforcement at all. The state handles all law enforcement in those places. > [@markn\_1](#): > > It’s reminiscent of [this case](https://www.loweringthebar.net/2019/07/natural-causes-determination-called-into-question.html) in Georgia, where a death was ruled as being from “natural causes”, despite the body having multiple stab wounds and there being “a large amount of blood” on the bed beneath the body, on the walls, and on the shower curtain in the bathroom. Well, it’d be really unnatural if someone got that many stab wounds and didn’t die, now wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/14 "2024-08-01T20:48:23Z")
That has nothing to do with this case, which was in Philadelphia . The part you quoted goes on to say > This is especially true in Pennsylvania, he said, where a coroner is typically an elected position, one that does not require a medical degree or medical training. While [Philadelphia, Delaware, and Allegheny counties](http://www.pacoroners.org/cms/members/#:~:text=Out%20of%2067%20counties%20in,each%20have%20an%20appointed%20coroner.)have appointed medical examiners who are certified forensic pathologists, I don’t know about PA - but in NY if a county has a non-physician coroner, then the board of supervisor’s must appoint at least one coroner’s physician, so just because there is a non-medical coroner in charge of the department doesn’t mean there aren’t doctors determining the cause and manner of death. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/15 "2024-08-01T21:04:12Z")
I didn’t say anything about the case whatsoever. I was just noting that was an interesting part of the article. I don’t know what you’re all arguing with me about. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2024, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/16 "2024-08-02T11:14:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Many locales in Pennsylvania don’t have any local law enforcement at all. The state handles all law enforcement in those places. Our house is within the area policed by the nearby town. My business is a 12 minute ride away (on backroads) and there is no local police. Pennsylvania State Police respond if we call the police at work. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/17 "2024-08-05T19:57:20Z")
This reminds me of a case about 30 years ago in Texas of a mid 20’s year old man that was shot 3 times in the chest with a rifle and was ruled a suicide by the county medical examiner. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/this-local-criminal-case-really-irritates-me/1005110/18 "2024-08-14T18:18:41Z")
It should be noted that there are cases in the forensic literature of multiple gunshot injuries (including to the head) and multiple stab wounds in cases determined to be suicide. [This case](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11583034_Suicide_by_more_than_90_stab_wounds_including_perforation_of_the_skull) involved _92_ stab wounds. In the case described in the OP, it would be important to know the character/depth of the stab wounds and more about the victim’s state of mind before making conclusions. The appearance of police pressure on the M.E. to change his ruling from homicide to suicide is of course disturbing.